John Morra vs Tyler Styer race to 30 livestream

[Poolplaya9]

I was bored so I entertained this... Singles record only.

2018:

• Tyler: Played 2, record 1-1 =50%
• SVB: Played 3, record 2-1 =67%

2019:

• Tyler: Played 2, record 0-2 =0%
• SVB: Played 4, record 2-2 =50%

2021:

• Tyler: Played 1, record 1-0 =100%
• SVB: Played 4, record 0-4 =0%

2022:

• Tyler: Played 2, record 0-2 =0%
• SVB: Played 2, record 0-2 =0%

So using your new criteria. Tyler played 7 singles matches and won 2, (29%) . SVB played 13 and won 4, (31%). Clearly the best player in USA is going to be given more kicks at the can, so we have a bit of a miss-matched sample size. Of course if you simply extend the trend, then Tyler would have ended up with a 4/14 record.

Once again, Tyler falls short of SVB in win percentage. Anything other filters you wanna try to validate your incorrect assessment..?

The only way one can consider Tyler the better performer, is if you cut him a free pass on worse results based solely on him not being the best player on the team. That sliding bar is fine, but it's subjective opinion, not based on facts and does nothing to help the score totals. This isn't figure skating, so style points don't win you sets.

Well you changed that post quite a bit but here is but here is my response to your original post before it was changed.

There is room for debate on how best to calculate these things, and I’m fully expecting you are going to wanting to argue the methods since the stats don't really support your contention, but what I think makes the most sense is to only use the singles and doubles matches, but their total performance for any particular year/career/time period should be weighted such that doubles matches only count half as much as singles matches since the player only contributed half to those matches. This would be along the lines of AtLarge’s method #2 where he only counts doubles wins as a half point and singles wins as a full point.

Per AtLarge’s stats in the links below, for the entirety of their Mosconi Cup careers:

SVB won 16 of 43 singles matches (37.2%), and 21 out of 44 doubles matches (47.7%), for a overall career weighted performance of a 40.6% win rate. This makes him a well below average player in the Mosconi Cup.

Tyler won 2 of 7 singles matches (28.6%), and 6 of 10 doubles matches (60%), for a overall career weighted performance of a 39.1% win rate. This is almost identical to SVB’s performance which of course makes him a well below average player in the Mosconi Cup as well (which was to be expected in his case since he is clearly under the Euro players any other time too).

And if you only want to look at their Mosconi Cup performances in the “Tyler era” of 2018 until now, not much actually changes. Tyler’s numbers are of course the same, and during that same time SVB won 5 of 16 singles matches (31.3%), and 10 of 16 doubles matches (62.5%), for a overall weighted performance of a 41.7% win rate, still nearly the same as Tyler’s 39.1%.

Like you, I was a bit surprised to see that their win records were essentially the same because Tyler's play has been just a little bit better overall in the Mosconi Cup than Shane's has, but the rolls or the particular way they lost among a number of other things can explain this discrepancy.

One thing that can't be debated is that by both the eye test and the stats SVB massively under-performs in the Mosconi Cup.

An unrelated but interesting takeaway is that each of them appears to play much better in doubles than they do in singles in the Mosconi Cup. I would be curious to see what that trend has been for the other American players, or all the players for that matter.

Mosconi Cup Stats -- Career Records for Players on 2022 Teams

Again this year, I am posting the career Mosconi-Cup records of this year's players. The combined records for each player were compiled from the yearly match results shown on Wikipedia, from matchroompool.com archives, and from my own records The career records of everyone who has ever played on...

forums.azbilliards.com

2022 Mosconi Cup Scores and Individual Records

Here are the final match and game records for the 2022 Mosconi Cup. Scoring the way it counts, by matches: Day 1 -- USA 3, Europe 1 Day 2 -- USA 1, Europe 3 Day 3 -- USA 2, Europe 4 Day 4 -- USA 1, Europe 3 Total -- 7 - 11 (USA winning percentage of 39%) Scoring by games rather than matches...

forums.azbilliards.com

 

[straightline]

You never just played?
Gamble for 18 hours...it's more mental than physical

Pool the same...you are training to achieve MUSCLE MEMORY...so it's automatic

First, no. Me not player. On muscle memory though, you gotta have faith in your abilities and seems Tyler has a conflict of priorities there. IDK.

 

[The_JV]

Well you changed that post quite a bit but here is but here is my response to your original post before it was changed.

Ah no... I did add the last section wherein I concede Shane could be considered the worse of the two if you made your decision solely based on expectation. The numbers never changed, even after AtLarge pointed out a small inconsistency.

There is room for debate on how best to calculate these things, and I’m fully expecting you are going to wanting to argue the methods since the stats don't really support your contention, but what I think makes the most sense is to only use the singles and doubles matches, but their total performance for any particular year/career/time period should be weighted such that doubles matches only count half as much as singles matches since the player only contributed half to those matches.

I wanted to pull out the part that matters from the above, cause it runs on a bit, but I'm getting the sense you'd probably spin that into me ignoring context.

I'm unconcerned with the method to calculate the comparison. Truth is, no matter how you want to spin it. Shane has put up better numbers than Tyler. If you have different numbers that justify your opinion then please post them. I wasn't able to find any. To be clear, my first comparison had both singles/doubles result in the mix. You then thought that wouldn't be the right way to handle it because of partner parity, so I ran them again using only singles from comparative years. I then ran the singles numbers again (you didn't want doubles) throughout their Mosconi careers. Which imo is an unfair comparison. So now you want a point for each singles win and a half point for each doubles win...? Come on man....lol. How about we review each doubles match and reward .75 points if it looked like they carried the set and .25 points if they struggled but won..?...

SVB won 16 of 43 singles matches (37.2%), and 21 out of 44 doubles matches (47.7%), for a overall career weighted performance of a 40.6% win rate. This makes him a well below average player in the Mosconi Cup.

What average...? Team USA's or both teams as a whole. Did you do this math to determine the average success rate amongst all players..? What's the number..? I'm thinking this is more guesswork based opinion weighed heavily on pretty obvious bias.

Tyler won 2 of 7 singles matches (28.6%), and 6 of 10 doubles matches (60%), for a overall career weighted performance of a 39.1% win rate. This is almost identical to SVB’s performance which of course makes him a well below average player in the Mosconi Cup as well (which was to be expected in his case since he is clearly under the Euro players any other time too).

And if you only want to look at their Mosconi Cup performances in the “Tyler era” of 2018 until now, not much actually changes. Tyler’s numbers are of course the same, and during that same time SVB won 5 of 16 singles matches (31.3%), and 10 of 16 doubles matches (62.5%), for a overall weighted performance of a 41.7% win rate, still nearly the same as Tyler’s 39.1%.

So if you review the numbers you posted above. Where do you find this evidence that Tyler is the better player during the Mosconi..?

Like you, I was a bit surprised to see that their win records were essentially the same because Tyler's play has been just a little bit better overall in the Mosconi Cup than Shane's has, but the rolls or the particular way they lost among a number of other things can explain this discrepancy.

One more time.... what data do you have that you're not sharing that quantifies Tyler's play as better than SVB's. I still haven't seen any evidence of that.

One thing that can't be debated is that by both the eye test and the stats SVB massively under-performs in the Mosconi Cup.

Sure can, watch me...lol. First off, the "eye test" is purely a subjective evaluation of a player's ability. What I think makes a good player may differ from yours. While I fully agree that I would have expected SVB's results to be stronger. The harsh reality is that every year there are 5 world beaters chomping at a chance to knock SVB down. Any of them can pull a set together and do so. It's just expected to be easier against the likes of Tyler.

Does your eye test include shot selection...? Did you remove any points from Tyler's score after the choice to swing at that 4 railer...? Do you have an example of SVB making such a nutty shot decision...?

Where I think we can find common ground is "expectation". Which isn't based on fact but merely subjective musings. Tyler has performed pretty much like I would have expected him to on the world stage. Based on solely on SVB's time at the top of the USA heap. You would hope his results would have a higher success rate. Although all the stats (no matter how you twist the math) state that SVB has produced more points at a greater rate. You would, again hope, that he could do better.

None of that means Tyler is the better Mosconi player. Only that we would expect SVB to have a larger margin over Tyler's efforts.

 

[cookie man]

The Jets beat the bills this season and are again 10point underdogs to them this week. Betting odds and match favorites cannot be too skewed by a couple results. Sure if you are gambling with some random, you can adjust spots/stakes after every race, but with so much data behind both of these guys' ratings, even if Styer beat him a 3rd in a row, Morra would be fav in the next one too.

Thenfeel free to keep betting on Morra when they play.

 

[VIProfessor]

Most concert pianists would melt in a bet oven.
Nuther comparison fail is concert pianists have thoroughly worked the material down to the itty bitty sensations. Not gonna happen in pool.
Styer, I have theories but I have no clues except the now consistent, nearly predictable glitching.

That may be true of classical pianists, but not jazz musicians. In jazz, you will never play a tune exactly like you did the previous time, and you are constantly reacting in the moment. Ask Billy Palmer what he thinks.

 

[straightline]

That may be true of classical pianists, but not jazz musicians. In jazz, you will never play a tune exactly like you did the previous time, and you are constantly reacting in the moment. Ask Billy Palmer what he thinks.

Absolutely. At least up to bop and maybe through the 60s, players came in armed with their axe and skill sets thereof. Pool is closer to this kind of performance although more and more players are trying to stick to absolutes as a matter of secure play. Not nearly so much impro and more tried and true structure. I think this is working not just because it's strategically smarter, but to some degree, the field is cooperating with that mind set. They can make a comfortable living on the grind; nothing to fix. Guys like Filler, Shaw, Gorst, and SVB have that level wired and take advantage by having the headroom to step on the gas when opportune. Frankly I prefer the hotties to the shrewdies.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Thenfeel free to keep betting on Morra when they play.

I would feel just fine having an open autobet on a 790FR vs a 762FR. Short term results can def be counter-trend and Styer can reel off a few in a row, but in the long run, I'd be printing money betting Morra.

 

[The_JV]

Thenfeel free to keep betting on Morra when they play.

Your stance on Morra/Syter does raise an interesting perspective.

I have a flawless tournament record (4-0) against the strongest player in our room. He has >30pts on me in fargo and it shows. What side would the 'smart money' end up on if we met up again...? In calcuttas, he'll fetch top dollar. Whereas I only warrant average money for "known players".

His ability to win or at least cash far out weighs mine. Like not even a comparable...lol

So if we ended up head to head. What does one consider when wanting to place a wager. The stronger player's history of success and measurable higher skill, or ignore that and only look at the head/head record...?

 

[SBC]

Your stance on Morra/Syter does raise an interesting perspective.

I have a flawless tournament record (4-0) against the strongest player in our room. He has >30pts on me in fargo and it shows. What side would the 'smart money' end up on if we met up again...? In calcuttas, he'll fetch top dollar. Whereas I only warrant average money for "known players".

His ability to win or at least cash far out weighs mine. Like not even a comparable...lol

So if we ended up head to head. What does one consider when wanting to place a wager. The stronger player's history of success and measurable higher skill, or ignore that and only look at the head/head record...?

Sounds like a recipe for a dump hustle.

 

[The_JV]

Sounds like a recipe for a dump hustle.

ok, assuming you're smart enough to see through the hustle you think is going on. Where does your rail bird money end up..?

 

[cookie man]

Your stance on Morra/Syter does raise an interesting perspective.

I have a flawless tournament record (4-0) against the strongest player in our room. He has >30pts on me in fargo and it shows. What side would the 'smart money' end up on if we met up again...? In calcuttas, he'll fetch top dollar. Whereas I only warrant average money for "known players".

His ability to win or at least cash far out weighs mine. Like not even a comparable...lol

So if we ended up head to head. What does one consider when wanting to place a wager. The stronger player's history of success and measurable higher skill, or ignore that and only look at the head/head record...?

You quoted tournament records and while they do mean something, I think gambling long races is a totally different animal. I believe Morra likes the game with Tyler, he just needs to figure out the correct racking details as Tyler out breaks him. Experience is definitely on Morra's side.
I think Tyler has more upside in the long run and each match with Morra he should be learning more and more.
If your opponent has a good gambling experience he should beat you in any long races.

 

[cookie man]

I would feel just fine having an open autobet on a 790FR vs a 762FR. Short term results can def be counter-trend and Styer can reel off a few in a row, but in the long run, I'd be printing money betting Morra.

I'd bet on a 790 over 762 also, but talking Morra and Styer, i expect those numbers to keep changing. And I'd be very curious to know the racking rules for there 3 matches that have taken place so far.

 

[Nick8400]

Any given day, sports fans.