Cue Tip Contact Myth-Busting Truths in Super Slow Motion

[dendweller]

Aren't threads, posts, and all of the Smilies/Frownies like this one great?! They really point out where and who the different factions are so you can determine future targets to offend as well as look out for in the future. The overall info or benefit for
pool related theory...ehhhh, take it with a grain of salt. The friend or foe discovery is more important. Hey, it's a FORUM.
LMAO.

Kind of sounds like you like threads that help you plan your next battle.

 

[buckshotshoey]

It is not on me to prove him wrong. It is perfectly legitimate to question methods, assumptions, and conclusions in a scientific discussion.

In fact, if you go back to my first post in this thread, you will see that I was charitable in my language. I said that I am unconvinced, and that the Doctor might be right. This was done deliberately to invite scientific debate. I was hoping that the eminent expert would not hide behind all the noise of his indignant fans, such as yourself. Unfortunately, he did.

As for your comments regarding my intestinal fortitude and all the rest, think what you will. I wanted to talk physics, not get into a pissing match.

Bullshit. If you are saying he is wrong, it IS up to you to prove it. And you replied with many things you are unwilling to prove.

 

[garczar]

Bullshit. If you are saying he is wrong, it IS up to you to prove it. And you replied with many things you are unwilling to prove.

Because they can't. They're out of ammo(if they ever had any) and have now resorted to throwing rocks. BTW folks i'm not a 'Dr.Dave accolyte' but a fact/data/proof guy. Dave just happens to be the dispenser of loads of good stuff along with BobJ., PJ and others. IMO we're lucky to have them. Do they get everything 100% right every time? No but i still like their batting average.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Kind of sounds like you like threads that help you plan your next battle.

You're basically a newbie on this forum with a little over a year under your belt. I've been here for 17 years.
Put that much time in yourself and get back to me with what your own perspective is then. Or you could be a casualty
well before. Btw, I know well in advance what's coming and who the other side is.

 

[dr_dave]

Would still love to have the contact time measured or have a slow motion video of this shot with phenolic tip.

On the video above you see the object ball jump and the jump effect is bigger with phenolic tip. To get the masse with phenolic tip on video you had to elevate the cue - means cue is now in the way of CB jump. Seems like must be multiple hits or somehow one longer tip contact to get the extreme masse.

Agreed. It would be interesting to see in super slow motion masse shots with different tips, cue elevations, and speeds to see and better understand what is going on. I will put in a request with Pubo, who has the new camera.

 

[dendweller]

here are my two kinds of stroke alternating. I tried to keep the hitting point on CB and speed the same every time.

on shot 1 and 3 I stop accelerating before the ball, so contact time is very short and reaction of CB same every time. (On this condition a draw of about 2 feet).

on shot 2 and 4 I accelerate through the ball and get a draw of about 8 feet.

since everything else is equal, I would guess the contact time of cue tip with CB changes depending on the kind of stroke

It looks like the shots are hitting the rail as well as the ball before it comes back, is that the case?
Edit, just enlarged and watched more closely, I was mistaken.

 

[dr_dave]

I found it helpful to know, that you can achieve very comparable results (slow sidespin, fast sidespin, draw, masse) no matter what kind of tip you are using. And I think this was the main message dr_dave tried to get into the pool world.

Just to clarify, maximum sidespin and good draw were easy and reliable with the extremely hard BK Hybrid tip: but this was not the case with masse, which was difficult and far from reliable (even though I proved it was possible).

 

[garczar]

Just to clarify, maximum sidespin and good draw were easy and reliable with the extremely hard BK Hybrid tip: but this was not the case with masse, which was difficult and far from reliable (even though I proved it was possible).

I was playing a friend on the barbox one night and after breaking(cheap Asian j/b with a White Diamond tip) i went ahead and shot the rack out with it. No issues with control or spin. The WD is great tip. Loads of ball speed and still have control.

 

[dr_dave]

here are my two kinds of stroke alternating. I tried to keep the hitting point on CB and speed the same every time.

on shot 1 and 3 I stop accelerating before the ball, so contact time is very short and reaction of CB same every time. (On this condition a draw of about 2 feet).

on shot 2 and 4 I accelerate through the ball and get a draw of about 8 feet.

since everything else is equal, I would guess the contact time of cue tip with CB changes depending on the kind of stroke

FYI, when most good shooters think they are “accelerating through the ball,” they are usually reaching maximum speed at the CB. And when they “let up on the stroke,” they are often decelerating just before the CB, coming short of the speed they want. It is rare to actually be still accelerating very much (or at all) at CB contact. For more info and demonstrations, see the videos, info, and links here;

stroke acceleration​

 

[dendweller]

FYI, when most good shooters think they are “accelerating through the ball,” they are usually reaching maximum speed at the CB. And when they “let up on the stroke,” they are often decelerating just before the CB, coming short of the speed they want. It is rare to actually be still accelerating very much (or at all) at CB contact. For more info and demonstrations, see the videos, info, and links here;

stroke acceleration​

I bet Alex P accelerates through a lot, I think there's maybe something to having your grip hand far back on the cue like he does in that regard.

 

[kanzzo]

FYI, when most good shooters think they are “accelerating through the ball,” they are usually reaching maximum speed at the CB. And when they “let up on the stroke,” they are often decelerating just before the CB, coming short of the speed they want. It is rare to actually be still accelerating very much (or at all) at CB contact. For more info and demonstrations, see the videos, info, and links here;

stroke acceleration​

So you say I played the ball slower when the draw was weaker?

 

[jollyrodger]

Because they can't. They're out of ammo(if they ever had any) and have now resorted to throwing rocks. BTW folks i'm not a 'Dr.Dave accolyte' but a fact/data/proof guy. Dave just happens to be the dispenser of loads of good stuff along with BobJ., PJ and others. IMO we're lucky to have them. Do they get everything 100% right every time? No but i still like their batting average.

all that has been challenged is the method by the method this experiment was conducted. so what you are saying is since we don't have a high speed camera we have to take the results of his experiment as fact?

 

[dr_dave]

I bet Alex P accelerates through a lot, I think there's maybe something to having your grip hand far back on the cue like he does in that regard.

I would be surprised if this is the case (especially the "a lot" part), but it is difficult to know without precise measurements (with an accelerometer or super-slow-motion video analysis). Regardless, acceleration at contact really doesn't do much for you per the info here:

stroke acceleration

grip non-effect during cue tip contact​

 

[buckshotshoey]

all that has been challenged is the method by the method this experiment was conducted. so what you are saying is since we don't have a high speed camera we have to take the results of his experiment as fact?

Produce your own experiment if you think he did it wrong.

A true scientist won't just say someone's methods are wrong. They will set up their own experiment to attempt to prove someone was wrong.

And if you fail in the process, you at least gain respect for putting yourself out there in front of others and TRYING! Talk is cheap.

 

[dr_dave]

So you say I played the ball slower when the draw was weaker?

Yes. If you got less draw, it was because you had less cue speed (by not accelerating enough during the forward stroke) or the the tip wasn't low enough. It is also possible (but not likely) the tip was too low. With long power draw shots, it doesn't help to push the miscue limit too much per the info here:

power draw technique advice​

 

[garczar]

all that has been challenged is the method by the method this experiment was conducted. so what you are saying is since we don't have a high speed camera we have to take the results of his experiment as fact?

really need to get out some. also need to go back and check the people who's only defense is along the lines of 'well, its gotta be that way'. Bottom line is in ACTUAL real-world use there is little(more like miniscule) difference in a soft vs. hard tip. prove your case or give it up.

 

[dr_dave]

Bottom line is in ACTUAL real-world use there is little(more like miniscule) difference in a soft vs. hard tip.

... except differences in the "feel" and sound of the hit and hit efficiency (energy transfer) and how well the tip might hold chalk.

 

[garczar]

... except differences in the "feel" and sound of the hit and hit efficiency (energy transfer) and how well the tip might hold chalk.

Completely agree but even these are small. I recently switched to hard Ultraskin black on my Mezz for sound/feel reasons. Spin seems to be exactly like the medium but the sound and 'clicky' hit i like is there in spades.

 

[dendweller]

I would be surprised if this is the case (especially the "a lot" part), but it is difficult to know without precise measurements (with an accelerometer or super-slow-motion video analysis). Regardless, acceleration at contact really doesn't do much for you per the info here:

stroke acceleration

grip non-effect during cue tip contact​

By a lot, I meant more often than most. Far as it helping, I figure it's a lot like a golf swing, you need to feel like you're accelerating through the ball. I think maybe it just helps you not decelerate.

 

[dr_dave]

By a lot, I meant more often than most. Far as it helping, I figure it's a lot like a golf swing, you need to feel like you're accelerating through the ball. I think maybe it just helps you not decelerate.

Agreed. You need to feel like you are "accelerating through the ball" even if you actually aren't. See the "What do people usually mean when they say 'accelerate through the ball' or 'finish the stroke?'” section on the stroke acceleration resource page.