Cue Tip Contact Myth-Busting Truths in Super Slow Motion

kanzzo

hobby player
Yes. If you got less draw, it was because you had less cue speed (by not accelerating enough during the forward stroke) or the the tip wasn't low enough. It is also possible (but not likely) the tip was too low. With long power draw shots, it doesn't help to push the miscue limit too much per the info here:


Hehe 😅

So you don't believe in the myth of two kind of strokes. It's all about speed and the point of hitting the CB.

This should be easy to test with few experiment. Speed is easiest (you can take my video and measure the time between the sound of hitting the CB and the sound of CB hitting OB). Since position of micro, CB, OB is same every time, this one shoud get precise measurements.

I could unconsciously hit the CB higher than expected but this should be easy to measure with chalk marks.

I think you would lose both challenges (I can hit CB higher and slower and still get more draw with my second kind of stroke).

But yes, this was my impression that you only take first kind of stroke into consideration for your measurements (even though you teached yourself the second kind for extreme draws since you wouldn't be able to have the extreme draw on video otherwise).
 

jollyrodger

#1 Troublemaker
Silver Member
really need to get out some. also need to go back and check the people who's only defense is along the lines of 'well, its gotta be that way'. Bottom line is in ACTUAL real-world use there is little(more like miniscule) difference in a soft vs. hard tip. prove your case or give it up.


i dont have to prove anything. im saying if you want to "Bust a myth" then you have to provide an experiment that can be recreated. just saying hit the ball hard does not do that. hit the ball at 5 mph does. add side spin does not do that . hit the ball 1/4" from center does. what it seems like is dave is reading the golden plates and saying trust me. while he is correct in my opinion i dont think he provided a way to test that. also see the post below. Tom did not say the myth was busted he provided a theory.

It's true that softer tips feature a longer contact time with the cue ball. Roughly, two thousandths of a second for soft tips at slow speeds, one thousandth of a second for hard tips, and half a thousandth for phenolic (break/jump) tips. You may feel or hear a difference in the hit, but you pretty much get the same amount of action for your one tip of offset in each case.

The harder tip transfers a bit more speed into the cue ball. If the cue ball is traveling faster, there is less time for spin to wear off prior to striking the object ball, so from that perspective, it could appear to have more spin. This is a tiny factor. -- Tom Simpson prior to 2016
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
By a lot, I meant more often than most. Far as it helping, I figure it's a lot like a golf swing, you need to feel like you're accelerating through the ball. I think maybe it just helps you not decelerate.
Fastest point of a golf swing is roughly 18" or so PAST the ball so you are accelerating. Could be wrong but it would seem like on a pool stroke the tip would be moving its fastest 'just' after impact. What say you Dave? Am i just sensing this or am i close to being on-track here?
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am pretty sure it was meant as a harmless joke but I can see, how you could get offended. Perhaps it didn't help the overall discussion.

View attachment 689534

apart from this I definitely see more personal and aggressive statements from your site. And didn't notice dr_dave putting anyone down. He just tries to adress every comment which is very time intensive so his answers get short sometimes providing links to the work he did put together already. But this thread really wasn't meant to get personal and have this much room for escalation.

Most scientists don't claim to be perfect. You just have a theory and try to back it up with experiments. At the end: let the cue do the talking. If you can come up with better experiments, you are welcome to do so and post them here.

Lot's of people believed (me included), that you need softer tip for extreme english (side or bottom). dr_dave had a theory, that it doesn't have to be true and could back it up with a video. Claim by Lou Figueroa, that he was cheating using a juiced CB seems ridiculous giving the fact that I had same result on my equipment on my first try with a shaft and tip I never used before.

Lou Figueroa prefers softer tip, Alex Pagulayan prefers softer tip for one pocket, I prefer softer tip.

At the end of the day: use whatever works for you. I found it helpful to know, that you can achieve very comparable results (slow sidespin, fast sidespin, draw, masse) no matter what kind of tip you are using. And I think this was the main message dr_dave tried to get into the pool world.

I believe I said the CB appeared highly polished, not juiced, which is something else and implies applying some kind of product to enhance draw.

Lou Figueroa
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I believe I said the CB appeared highly polished, not juiced, which is something else and implies applying some kind of product to enhance draw.

Lou Figueroa
Watched some guys play 3c once on an old-slow table. They siliconed the balls and WOWWW, the shit they made those balls do was insane. Had no idea the effect a large dose of silicone had. Crazy.
 

dendweller

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Agreed. You need to feel like you are "accelerating through the ball" even if you actually aren't. See the "What do people usually mean when they say 'accelerate through the ball' or 'finish the stroke?'” section on the stroke acceleration resource page.
In addition to not decelling I believe it helps to not let your stroke break down or let up too early. In golf, that's rolling your chip across the green and into the woods. Don't think it's a lot different in pool. Probably seen when chipping a ball over the object into the pocket on the fly.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In addition to not decelling I believe it helps to not let your stroke break down or let up too early. In golf, that's rolling your chip across the green and into the woods. Don't think it's a lot different in pool. Probably seen when chipping a ball over the object into the pocket on the fly.
Not the dreaded'Hormel' chili-dip??? One of golf's true horrors. ;)
 

jollyrodger

#1 Troublemaker
Silver Member
I believe I said the CB appeared highly polished, not juiced, which is something else and implies applying some kind of product to enhance draw.

Lou Figueroa

i introduced some of my league team members last night to straight pool. i hope this sparks a conversation and we can start a league or at least a high run challenge in the pool room.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Produce your own experiment if you think he did it wrong.

A true scientist won't just say someone's methods are wrong. They will set up their own experiment to attempt to prove someone was wrong.

And if you fail in the process, you at least gain respect for putting yourself out there in front of others and TRYING! Talk is cheap.

I don’t think anyone with questions here is claiming to be a “true scientist.”

But that does not mean they cannot express a contrary opinion and/or ask questions, to which they should receive respectful replies from the guy proposing his theories.

Lou Figueroa
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i introduced some of my league team members last night to straight pool. i hope this sparks a conversation and we can start a league or at least a high run challenge in the pool room.

14.1 is a great game — and it will improve your skills for all the others.

Lou Figueroa
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Watched some guys play 3c once on an old-slow table. They siliconed the balls and WOWWW, the shit they made those balls do was insane. Had no idea the effect a large dose of silicone had. Crazy.

Yup.

I was playing some 3C a few days ago and was asked to play a game. I agreed and the house man came over and swapped out the set of balls I’d been playing with with another set that clearly had had some “secret sauce” applied to them. Missed my opening shot by a yard and it was downhill from there, lol.

Lou Figueroa
 

Texas3cushion

Active member
Yup.

I was playing some 3C a few days ago and was asked to play a game. I agreed and the house man came over and swapped out the set of balls I’d been playing with with another set that clearly had had some “secret sauce” applied to them. Missed my opening shot by a yard and it was downhill from there, lol.

Lou Figueroa
Where I play 3c, they have a guy whose job it is to vacuum the tables and bring a new set of clean balls after every game. He sits and waits for games to be finished and basically you hear a vacuum in the background the majority of the day.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Where I play 3c, they have a guy whose job it is to vacuum the tables and bring a new set of clean balls after every game. He sits and waits for games to be finished and basically you hear a vacuum in the background the majority of the day.

Think I’d rather have a dirty table than have to listen to a vacuum.

Lou Figueroa
 

Texas3cushion

Active member
I'm also not convinced that hyper-clean equipment is absolutely better. It's better/easier to do some things but harder to control other things.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Where I play 3c, they have a guy whose job it is to vacuum the tables and bring a new set of clean balls after every game. He sits and waits for games to be finished and basically you hear a vacuum in the background the majority of the day.
That's overkill on the cleaning. Once a day is plenty. Most players would be happy with once a week. ;)
 
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