Is a Cue with Less Squirt or Cue Ball Deflection Better?

dendweller said:
Maybe I'm missing something. Why would you need to create additional spin. Can't you just hit the same stroke that would cause deflection in one shaft, and with the ld shaft just aim where the first shaft would of deflected?
Click to expand...
We were speaking of adjusting aim to miss an obstruction rather than aiming to hit and utilizing squirt. Wasn't a matter of what shaft you use.

In either case you need to overcome squirt to swerve back to your aim line. I would rather shoot more lightly than heavy. ...so I aim to hit and squirt to miss. If I aim to miss, I need more english to bring back the CB to the desired aim line. This would be shot dependent so YMMV

I do my best to avoid masse' shots at all cost, so when they do become the best course of action. I minimize the CB action I need
 
dendweller said:
... there are some shots where deflection and swerve cancel each other out so that there is no adjustment necessary from aiming as a normal cut using a deflecting cue. Same shot and contact point with LD you'd be adjusting for the swerve being a greater factor than the deflection. Do you not agree with that?
Click to expand...

Most definitely. For any cue (LD or non-LD), there are certain combinations of cue elevation, amount and type of spin, shot speed, shot distance, and cloth conditions, where swerve will exactly cancel swerve, resulting in no net CB deflection, but it is difficult to judge these things over a wide range of shots. For demonstrations and more info, see:

 
straightline said:
Let's use the line of centers as the base line. With an LD you need to aim wider and if that exceeds the default swerve for that shaft, swerve must be added. This complicates the use of an LD shaft. I think its advantage is you can shoot spin shots harder without the unpredictable results (unpredictable reduction of accuracy/changes in line) you'd get with a wall cue. Also since we can almost assume CF materials, they can be fashioned with longer, near cylindrical tapers that facilitate truly linear cue action.
Click to expand...

Actually, with an LD shaft, swerve comes closer to cancelling squirt for most shots with a near-level cue. That's exactly why many people like LD shafts better. They allow you to aim closer to where you actually want the CB to go. For examples, see:

 
dr_dave said:
... For any cue (LD or non-LD), there are certain combinations of cue elevation, amount and type of spin, shot speed, shot distance, and cloth conditions, where swerve will exactly cancel swerve, resulting in no net CB deflection,...
Click to expand...
Many players believe that speed does not affect aim with sidespin shots. I think they haven't made the connection between speed and the shape of the swerve.
 
dr_dave said:
You definitely need to aim differently with shafts that create different amounts of squirt; but if you know how to compensate your aim for CB deflection for a given shaft, any shot can be executed accurately. Some people will like LD shafts better since your aim will be closer to where you actually want the CB to go.
Click to expand...
...and some people like solid maple shafts because they generate squirt with minimal comparative effort to shot performed with a LD shaft.
 
The_JV said:
...and some people like solid maple shafts because they generate squirt with minimal comparative effort to shot performed with a LD shaft.
Click to expand...

Non-LD shafts definitely create more squirt, and more resulting net CB deflection with less shot speed, and many people are accustomed to aiming shots crooked to compensate for this because they have played with non-LD shafts for so long. And it can be difficult for these people to adjust to a non-LD shaft, where the CB heads closer to where you are aiming. But if a player can be accurate and consistent with a non-LD shaft, there is certainly no reason to change. LD shafts do offer slight advantages to the people who put in the time and effort to get accustomed to them, but an LD shaft is certainly not required to play at a high level.
 
dr_dave said:
Actually, with an LD shaft, swerve comes closer to cancelling squirt for most shots with a near-level cue. That's exactly why many people like LD shafts better. They allow you to aim closer to where you actually want the CB to go. For examples, see:

Click to expand...
I forgot to specify for the swerve shot I was talking about. Yes the straighter shots would require less figuring and adjustments - the strong suit of LD.
 
dr_dave said:
Non-LD shafts definitely create more squirt, and more resulting net CB deflection with less shot speed, and many people are accustomed to aiming shots crooked to compensate for this because they have played with non-LD shafts for so long. And it can be difficult for these people to adjust to a non-LD shaft, where the CB heads closer to where you are aiming. But if a player can be accurate and consistent with a non-LD shaft, there is certainly no reason to change. LD shafts do offer slight advantages to the people who put in the time and effort to get accustomed to them, but an LD shaft is certainly not required to play at a high level.
Click to expand...
I still recall making the switch from solid maple to my first 314... I really was just following the trend back in those days. Took a couple of weeks to really get a handle on it. Would never go back.
 
dr_dave said:
I have tried air pivots, but I honestly cannot do it very accurately or consistently.


I also agree that SAWS is probably not for everybody; although, with a little practice, implementing SAWS really doesn't take much thinking or mental effort. You just observe the distance between the CB and OB, visualize the shot speed you plan to use (which is good to do anyway), and do the pivots. I specifically like SAWS because I don't need to really judge or have a feel for how squirt, swerve, and CB deflection vary with shot speed and distance. Having trust in SAWS (and the careful practice I have put in) gives me confidence since I don't need to rely on "intuition" or "feel" when aiming a shot (which can lead to uncertainty or doubt).
Click to expand...

Performing air pivots consistently takes a lot of practice. For me I was good at it off the bat and just got better with practice/refinement. When performing the air pivots its not just as simple as air pivoting. There are a whole progression of mechanical/visual steps I take (which are noticeable to observers which have asked a lot of questions) to perform it accurately. It took a while to work out what steps were needed for it to work well.

I will mess up a pivot now and then but I think what is gained from the body alignment being set before going down and not having the fudge the numbers for different bridge lengths makes it worthwhile. Simply put when I pivot down in my stance, I, like many others, tend to cue back at the original center ball alignment on the final stroke from time to time. If you come down already pivoted but in a center ball fashion this never happens.

So to me the air pivot is a trade-off, do you want the most accurate pivoting or do you want the most accurate delivery? Do you want to do extra math or do you want to keep the math as simple as possible? These are choices the user has to make.
 
Last edited:
slide13 said:
Trying to relearn to shoot some short shots without instinctively compensating is hard and throws me off.
Click to expand...
On some shots, the spin induced throw seems to overcompensate for the deflection, which was hard to get my head around. There's a voice in the back of my head telling me there's no way the cue ball is going where I need it to go.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Any force that can be applied to the CB by a non-LD shaft can be duplicated by an LD shaft, and vice verse, with just a slight difference in cue angle. One can't do more or less than the other.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
In the case of the oversquare cut, the LD will run out of swerve before the HD. With HD, the required direction is a byproduct and function of the amount of english used/required. With LD, propulsion has to be added in the corrected direction.
 
tomatoshooter said:
On some shots, the spin induced throw seems to overcompensate for the deflection, which was hard to get my head around. There's a voice in the back of my head telling me there's no way the cue ball is going where I need it to go.
Click to expand...

In SAWS, throw (when important) is compensated for with the center-ball aim. before doing the pivots to compensate for CB deflection. The list at the bottom of the page here is useful for knowing when and how to compensate for throw:

 
straightline said:
In the case of the oversquare cut, the LD will run out of swerve before the HD. With HD, the required direction is a byproduct and function of the amount of english used/required. With LD, propulsion has to be added in the corrected direction.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I can’t decipher that. Do you think LD transfers less force?

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Sorry, I can’t decipher that. Do you think LD transfers less force?

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
The scoring direction with HD is a function of deflection. The scoring direction with LD is more a function of vector correction. IOW You aim differently. But what happens is with low deflection the corrected aim puts more force into the scoring direction. This changes the ratios of force/velocity/spin/ball color/etc and therefore swerve. The two shafts almost certainly have mutually exclusive zones.
 
straightline said:
The scoring direction with HD is a function of deflection. The scoring direction with LD is more a function of vector correction. IOW You aim differently. But what happens is with low deflection the corrected aim puts more force into the scoring direction. This changes the ratios of force/velocity/spin/ball color/etc and therefore swerve. The two shafts almost certainly have mutually exclusive zones.
Click to expand...
So… with LD the direction of force is more parallel to the cue so more effective…? That’s easily compensated with stroke speed.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
So… with LD the direction of force is more parallel to the cue so more effective…? That’s easily compensated with stroke speed.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
Yes but the problem is still getting enough swerve to clear the edge of the frozen ball and land back in the pocket - something that happens by default with a wall cue. With the LD you probably need enough speed to exceed the escape velocity of the frozen ball shot. IOW you'd have to deliberately start masse-ing the shot.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top