Scott Frost's opinion about Predator tables

[Gatz]

The raised lip on the back is on purpose. It’s called the bi-level pocket, or something like that. It’s to keep the balls from flying out of the pocket when hit very hard. Diamond has had that since their beginning, I believe.

Interesting, never knew that. Other tables with truly flush pockets don't have issues with balls flying out of the pockets. I've seen people shoot into center pockets of a Diamond and it come out the opposite side pocket, on ball return tables. lol

I'd take the flush pockets over the chance a ball could come back up any day of the week haha. I've rarely played a set on a Diamond where that little lip doesn't cause some kind of issue for one player or another.

 

[Gatz]

I play on a Rasson, at my local room. I cant imagine anyone buying a Rasson over Diamond or Brunswick. And I have not heard any positive feedback about the Predator tables.

So having played on Diamond, Brunswick and Rasson, my order would be:

1. Diamond (most challenging)
2. Brunswick (most fun to play on)
3. Rasson (second most challenging)
4. Predator, poor reviews and quality unknown (?)
5. All other American brands currently (not making many good tournament tables)
6. Chinese imports other than Rasson (totally hit or miss quality)

My list is only discussing 9' foot options. Please update me if I have omitted any other good options

Here's my list

1. Diamond, if money wasn't an issue (definitely most challenging table)
2. Predator, I'm not a mechanic, just a player. I really enjoy playing on these tables.
3. Brunswick Gold Crown 4's. Really fun table to play on. The pocket sound was the best out of all tables when you popped it into center of pocket.
4. Black Crown 1's/2's great table, no complaints. Especially for the price

Only played 1 rack on a Rasson. Seemed like a great table.

#2-4 are all very equal and would be happy with either. Only the Diamond really stands out a bit more than the others for me.

Special shout out to Valley 7ft bartables. I feel like GOD on these things. It's a shitload of fun lol with good balls...

 

[Sheldon]

1. Diamond, if money wasn't an issue (definitely most challenging table)
2. Predator, I'm not a mechanic, just a player. I really enjoy playing on these tables.
3. Brunswick Gold Crown 4's. Really fun table to play on. The pocket sound was the best out of all tables when you popped it into center of pocket.
4. Black Crown 1's/2's great table, no complaints. Especially for the price

Predator 9'? or 7s? I played on a 7 and was not real impressed. Haven't seen the 9s yet.

 

[The_JV]

I cant imagine anyone buying a Rasson over Diamond or Brunswick. And I have not heard any positive feedback about the Predator tables.

You don't need to try and imagine anymore. You have officially met one on the internet

I don't believe I have spoken to anyone regarding the predator 9fter's, but I've listened to tons of praise over the BB versions.

 

[The_JV]

Here's my list

1. Diamond, if money wasn't an issue (definitely most challenging table)
2. Predator, I'm not a mechanic, just a player. I really enjoy playing on these tables.
3. Brunswick Gold Crown 4's. Really fun table to play on. The pocket sound was the best out of all tables when you popped it into center of pocket.
4. Black Crown 1's/2's great table, no complaints. Especially for the price

Only played 1 rack on a Rasson. Seemed like a great table.

#2-4 are all very equal and would be happy with either. Only the Diamond really stands out a bit more than the others for me.

Special shout out to Valley 7ft bartables. I feel like GOD on these things. It's a shitload of fun lol

Here's my list:

1. Rasson: Cleanest of the bunch and extruded aluminum frame is leaps and bounds a better material than wood.

2. Black Crown 2: Lighter build but play as well as any Gold Crown. Massive cost savings. Bonus points for being home grown. Oh and the pocket castings fit like they should out of the box.
3. Predator: In 3rd place only because Diamond incorrectly believes they have flush pockets.
4. Diamond: Because they should be on the list..?
5. The crappy tables at my home room. Can't recall the manufacturer or model but they humble the straightest shooters. Put fresh cloth and new rubber on these bad boys and they play like a "pro" table should.

Honourable mention to all those who have furniture grade tables and have paid to have them dialed in to play at a quality level.

 

[Gatz]

Predator 9'? or 7s? I played on a 7 and was not real impressed. Haven't seen the 9s yet.

Only played on the 7fters. No 9ft Predator tables around here....yet. I also played on about 20 different tables (all Predators) in a span of a week, about 12 hour days. Made it deep into 5 different tournaments they had going on (2nd, 3rd,3rd, 5/6th, 7/8th) So I got a good amount of play on different ones and they all played great.

 

[kid]

I just hate the fact that you have to completely knock down the rails to change the cloth. What a waste of time for a commercial table that is going to have the cloth changed more than a furniture grade


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant AzBilliards Forums

 

[The_JV]

I just hate the fact that you have to completely knock down the rails to change the cloth. What a waste of time for a commercial table that is going to have the cloth changed more than a furniture grade

Which manufacturer are you speaking of..? Predator, Rasson, Brunswick...?

I think we need to stop applying commercial grade wish lists (expectations) to a discussion about what people would put in their homes. Owning a commerical vs furniture grade table isn't going to change the frequency of cloth changes in a home. Leveling systems that will cut down set up time from a few hours to under an hour is moot to all, other than the mechanics performing the labour.

What matters is play-ability, and the table's ability to hold it's specs after the mechanic has left the building.

If this was a discussion on what to buy for a new pool room. The choices would be different.

 

[Nick B]

Here's my list:

1. Rasson: Cleanest of the bunch and extruded aluminum frame is leaps and bounds a better material than wood.
View attachment 701341
2. Black Crown 2: Lighter build but play as well as any Gold Crown. Massive cost savings. Bonus points for being home grown. Oh and the pocket castings fit like they should out of the box.
3. Predator: In 3rd place only because Diamond incorrectly believes they have flush pockets.
4. Diamond: Because they should be on the list..?
5. The crappy tables at my home room. Can't recall the manufacturer or model but they humble the straightest shooters. Put fresh cloth and new rubber on these bad boys and they play like a "pro" table should.

Honourable mention to all those who have furniture grade tables and have paid to have them dialed in to play at a quality level.

You would be mistaken. Requires a ton of assembly and that is the variable. Does the assembler have the tech (tools) and know how to assemble and torque in correct fashion. Very hollow sounding and play VERY short once broken in and the pockets become gaffy down the rails. Diamonds just get a little tougher because the slide comes out of the cloth. Aslo wood expands with humidity. Now you have dissimilar materials at play. Diamonds are Wood & Slate. Rasson's are Wood/Aluminum & Slate. Different expansion properties with temp and humidity.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I haven't kept up with this thread closely. Did we ever find out what Scott's specific issues with the table were?

 

[trob]

I trust both Glen's and your opinions. However, I think RKC tends to focus his opinions in terms of commercial application. Which isn't bad, but maybe not all that necessary when declaring what will stand up over the course of time for home use.

I'm ok with being wrong there, and I've never taken the time to look under a Rasson so I have no dog in this fight.

I feel the same way. For a home owner I don’t feel like that’s much of a problem unless they buy an Old table from a pool hall. Then I would take that into consideration.

 

[trob]

All I know is I just put my $1000 down on a new diamond yesterday and it will be here in 2 weeks And now I don’t even want to look at my olhausen let alone play on it There is something about a diamond that just plays different then anything out there. I looked at the predators until I saw they wanted $500 more then a diamond and to me you have to be a real predator fan boy to buy that Instead.

On another note the last local barstools and billiards closed down. The last time I was in there (it had been a while) they went from selling olhausens to some brand name I never heard of. They looked nice but your really looking for the non educated home buyer if your trying to push $10000.00 tables that won’t be worth a quarter of that when you want to sell it because your family doesn’t play it and it‘s just sitting in the way

 

[The_JV]

You would be mistaken. Requires a ton of assembly and that is the variable. Does the assembler have the tech (tools) and know how to assemble and torque in correct fashion. Very hollow sounding and play VERY short once broken in and the pockets become gaffy down the rails.

That was not my short experience playing on a Rasson. Hollow sounding and playing short. Probably not enough wear on the table to have a valid counter argument though with playing short over time.

As far as the tech having the correct tools to install the table. Well what guarantee do we have that the Diamond installer will have the correct wrench to adjust the leveling wedges..? <--ya it's kinda a silly argument don't you think...?

The Rasson rep for having gaffy corners is something I tried to recreate the one opportunity I played on one. I couldn't, and trust me I tried as hard as I could. I have read that this issue was more related to their furniture grade tables and I haven't seen such inconsistent play during any of the pro events I've watched them used in.

Diamonds just get a little tougher because the slide comes out of the cloth. Aslo wood expands with humidity. Now you have dissimilar materials at play. Diamonds are Wood & Slate. Rasson's are Wood/Aluminum & Slate. Different expansion properties with temp and humidity.

Wood also twists, cups, cracks etc... Aluminum doesn't twist, cup, or crack.. Expansion on extruded aluminum is uniform and solely based on large temp swings. Slate's characteristics in this regard are moot. So lets pretend this dissimilar material argument has merit for a moment. What's worse, a material that's prone to expansion/contraction, or one that isn't..? Hopefully that's obvious. Now that we have established that. What would be worse. Various applications of a material prone to expansion/contraction that would fight one another...?..., or limited use of said material..?

On a Diamond you have timbers for a frame. Plywood bolted to it. Slate bolted to that, and finally heavily finished solid wood (rails) bolted to the slate. That's 3 separate applications of the most prone material to expansion/contraction. The Plywood being the most dimensionally stable piece of the wood sandwich. Depending on treatment and grain orientation. You could in theory have all three of these layers fighting one another.

Truth is, for the most part, although expansion/contraction is a real thing, it's way worse on wood than aluminum. The idea that multiple layers wood that are dissimilar in application and orientation is better than an assembly that has core of a more stable material is ill conceived. With that said, even tables with a supposedly cheaper laminated frame design are more dimensionally stable that solid timber. They are cheaper in the monetary sense, but a better design otherwise.

I understand there's a love affair with wood, but some need to come to terms that it isn't the best material for most structural applications. It's just easy to work with and cheaper to use.

 

[The_JV]

All I know is I just put my $1000 down on a new diamond yesterday and it will be here in 2 weeks And now I don’t even want to look at my olhausen let alone play on it There is something about a diamond that just plays different then anything out there. I looked at the predators until I saw they wanted $500 more then a diamond and to me you have to be a real predator fan boy to buy that Instead.

Diamonds are an extremely solidly built table. No argument from me there. It's difficult to find fault with them imo. Unfortunately the not flush pockets is a deal breaker for me personally. If I'm spending 10k, it's gotta be flawless.

That said, are truly flush pockets worth an extra $500 to me...?..., hell ya. However I don't think the predator is worth $10.5k. If I was forced into that model of table. I'd sooner import a Sam and do without the logos.

 

[Island Drive]

Was talking with Tom Rossman/Dr. Cue.... at the Trop a couple weeks ago, been close friends for decades.
Anywho..... he said something very interesting about the newest Diamond/League bar Table that's just being released.
If someone's already mentioned it, oops, just didn't want to read over 200+ threads anywho.
The league table pocket opening is somewhat the same, BUT the facing is now angled inwards more, allowing balls to not dbl the facing, and they all fall in.
I like it, why?
When your learning to play this extremely difficult game like an APA beginner, it's just nice to make a ball once in a while instead of it jawing.

 

[The_JV]

Was talking with Tom Rossman/Dr. Cue.... at the Trop a couple weeks ago, been close friends for decades.
Anywho..... he said something very interesting about the newest Diamond/League bar Table that's just being released.
If someone's already mentioned it, oops, just didn't want to read over 200+ threads anywho.
The league table pocket opening is somewhat the same, BUT the facing is now angled inwards more, allowing balls to not dbl the facing, and they all fall in.
I like it, why?
When your learning to play this extremely difficult game like an APA beginner, it's just nice to make a ball once in a while instead of it jawing.

Yep, you can make otherwise "tight" or merely tighter than the norm pockets play like vacuums if you lower the miter angle. Just get the ball within the points and watch the geometry suck it in.

 

[Island Drive]

But JV, no one ever has Done this intentionally on a higher end mfg pro type table.
Like the earlier Gold Crowns and others.
Some made the openings larger, but Still kept the facing somewhat the same.
Don't think they ever intentionally did this during table construction,that I know of,Completely Changing the facing dramatically inward. Be interesting to see the comments from the Snake? I'm sure he's aware.

 

[The_JV]

But JV, no one ever has Done this intentionally on a higher end mfg pro type table.
Like the earlier Gold Crowns and others.
Some made the openings larger, but Still kept the facing somewhat the same.
Don't think they ever intentionally did this during table construction,that I know of,Completely Changing the facing dramatically inward. Be interesting to see the comments from the Snake? I'm sure he's aware.

I know when I heard about the APA adopting the Diamond table, I was really looking forward to the Valley BB specialists struggling with the smaller and correctly cut pockets. There's a lot of unique shots that can be made on those Valleys that aren't on a 9fter's mind. Pulling those shots out of the "game" and forcing them to become better potters was going to be entertaining.

However I also heard about the outcry from the league regs about playing conditions being potentially too difficult and the APA being concerned about losing members. Makes sense that they doctor the pockets to make them play more friendly.

 

[Nick B]

That was not my short experience playing on a Rasson. Hollow sounding and playing short. Probably not enough wear on the table to have a valid counter argument though with playing short over time.

As far as the tech having the correct tools to install the table. Well what guarantee do we have that the Diamond installer will have the correct wrench to adjust the leveling wedges..? <--ya it's kinda a silly argument don't you think...?

The Rasson rep for having gaffy corners is something I tried to recreate the one opportunity I played on one. I couldn't, and trust me I tried as hard as I could. I have read that this issue was more related to their furniture grade tables and I haven't seen such inconsistent play during any of the pro events I've watched them used in.

Wood also twists, cups, cracks etc... Aluminum doesn't twist, cup, or crack.. Expansion on extruded aluminum is uniform and solely based on large temp swings. Slate's characteristics in this regard are moot. So lets pretend this dissimilar material argument has merit for a moment. What's worse, a material that's prone to expansion/contraction, or one that isn't..? Hopefully that's obvious. Now that we have established that. What would be worse. Various applications of a material prone to expansion/contraction that would fight one another...?..., or limited use of said material..?

On a Diamond you have timbers for a frame. Plywood bolted to it. Slate bolted to that, and finally heavily finished solid wood (rails) bolted to the slate. That's 3 separate applications of the most prone material to expansion/contraction. The Plywood being the most dimensionally stable piece of the wood sandwich. Depending on treatment and grain orientation. You could in theory have all three of these layers fighting one another.

Truth is, for the most part, although expansion/contraction is a real thing, it's way worse on wood than aluminum. The idea that multiple layers wood that are dissimilar in application and orientation is better than an assembly that has core of a more stable material is ill conceived. With that said, even tables with a supposedly cheaper laminated frame design are more dimensionally stable that solid timber. They are cheaper in the monetary sense, but a better design otherwise.

I understand there's a love affair with wood, but some need to come to terms that it isn't the best material for most structural applications. It's just easy to work with and cheaper to use.

If you have played on one then I'm amazed you couldn't recreate what many have said and experienced. Extruded aluminum assemblies are not magic and I have no inherent wood love affair. Talk to an installer who has worked on both. The Diamonds simply play better and are well renowned for their build quality.

 

[The_JV]

If you have played on one then I'm amazed you couldn't recreate what many have said and experienced. Extruded aluminum assemblies are not magic and I have no inherent wood love affair. Talk to an installer who has worked on both. The Diamonds simply play better and are well renowned for their build quality.

No joke... I played shots with purpose to try and recreate this "problem". Could just be that the table in question was set up with intent to remove this issue. Regardless, it's proof enough for me that at the very least, the supposed pocket issue on Rassons is a tweak away from being a non-issue. If it even exists on current offerings.

I don't recall noting any magical properties. Just that extruded aluminum is far better than wood for structural support. ...and based on my exposure to it in industrial applications, it's probably a more costly material to use for sake of this extra quality.

I personally only know one installer that does Diamond installations that I would trust to provide me with a knowledgeable and unbiased opinion. However I have zero idea if he's ever worked on a Rasson.

Diamonds definitely have a great rep. I also know that given the correct amount of effort. Non-Diamonds can play just as well.