I'm not sure how that would even work on a Gold Crown given the rails are sized to fit between the pocket castings. If you move them one way or another, it throws everything off.
Loosening the pockets on a Diamond table
- Thread starter rostym
- Start date
Do we need to shout, “RKC” three times to get him here?
A lot of “just for fun” players hate tight pockets. I love them but most players I run into, except at the hall, avoid them. I’ve been to many places that are packed, music blasting, people having fun and bucket size bar boxes.
I’ve asked many times, “why not go down to the pool hall, more space, better music, bar, everything?”
They say the balls usually don’t go in, just rattle in the pockets. They tell me it’s for the
more serious players and they just want to drink, dance and get laid, not wanting to be world champions!
I’ve asked many times, “why not go down to the pool hall, more space, better music, bar, everything?”
They say the balls usually don’t go in, just rattle in the pockets. They tell me it’s for the
more serious players and they just want to drink, dance and get laid, not wanting to be world champions!
Yes- I frequent a room daytime hours with 2 Gold Crowns tightened to 4 1/2 but wider angles into the pocket mouth than Diamond pro cuts- I am usually the only guy on either table. Everyone else avoids them like the plague and they all prefer the 8 other tables in the room with full 5 inch Gandy pockets.
In another room with 3 Diamond pro cuts- they are down to almost no traffic at all- the owner told me that everyone complained that the tables are too fast and too difficult to make balls.
I do it to sharpen my game and force myself to smooth out my stroke, but most that I see do not want to torture themselves even for self- improvement sake.
What room is that?
When I’ve been to southern billiards the 9’ Diamond's seem to be busy.
It is true that you cannot open up or change the angle on the back of the subrail/pocket facing much on a Diamond pocket before it would expose the corner of the leather pocket, which could potentially create an issue. Looking at my Diamond, I believe you could open it up to 1/8 inch on both sides with no problem.
Every pool hall/bar should have two totally separate rooms. One with bar-boxes (bucket pockets/ratty cloth) & loud music for the bangers, and another, quiet room with quality/well-lit 9’ tables (pro-cut Diamonds with new Simonis) for serious players. The old farts who can no longer ‘cut-it’ can move down and impress the bangers, and the bar-box novices who develop a real enthusiasm for the game (and become ‘fed-up‘ with their boisterous environment) will have someplace to go.
I was told by a room owner that Gold Crown rails could be moved in a little and this adjustment would tighten the pockets and lengthen the shelf making them play much tighter. The flip side is that moving them back out would make larger pockets and shorten the shelf thereby making them much more forgiving. I never heard this was an option with the Diamond design.
follownoone
Registered
Every pool hall/bar should have two totally separate rooms. One with bar-boxes (bucket pockets/ratty cloth) & loud music for the bangers, and another, quiet room with quality/well-lit 9’ tables (pro-cut Diamonds with new Simonis) for serious players.
Mothers in Charlotte used to be set up this way. The bar was in the middle. Back room was the action room with many top pros playing there. It has been closed for years.
Mothers in Charlotte used to be set up this way. The bar was in the middle. Back room was the action room with many top pros playing there. It has been closed for years.
If you try to move the rails in relation to the pocket castings to try adjust pocket width on a Gold Crown you would end up with rails that are not square and parallel and you would likely have ugly gaps between the pocket castings and the rails. Unfortunately you would have to trim the cushions and the rail to widen the pockets because the facing is glued to the end of the cushion and the wood sub-rail. If you try to just trim the cushion you would end up with a step in the facing. You can check real easy if its a pro-cut Diamond by putting 2 balls side by side in the pocket opening, if they fit tight and wont fall its 4 1/2", if the balls are loose its probably a league cut opening which is 4 3/4", if they wont fit either someone ordered a tight table from Diamond or put thick facings on to tighten the pockets. If it was my table the last thing I would do is cut the opening bigger, most people want a 4 1/2" Diamond so it would probably affect resale value.
I have a Gold Crown I that I would not trade even up for a Diamond. I like Diamonds but I like my table more and way it is set up better.
snookered_again
Well-known member
what I use to grind rubber is similar to an angle grinder but with a much slower speed and a grinding disk like you might use to grind welds.
If you go too fast it burns. You can cut rubber with a knife, but the pressure of the knife causes deflection. that often causes a lot of inacuracy.
cutting tools like the bit of a metal lathe or a chisel of a wood lathe or a drill bit won't work but you can use tool post grinder and the grindstone should turn opposite the piece being turned. a dremil with a stone in it will grind rubber.
a good table may attach the rail to the slate with bolts, or it may have steel backed rails which provide weight. when the inertia of the ball hits, the more dead and heavy and well bolted into place that rail is, the better bounce you will have and on a good table it's a lot more silent. materials used to make the rails matter. ideally they are heavy wood, and not some junk particleboard.
If you move the rails to tighten the pockets, then you may only be relying upon the clamping force of the bolts holding the rails (because the bolts , when loose, are a loose fit in their holes )
and that could have some "give" The rail may "give" very slightly because there is not a good fit in the bolt hole. If on the other hand , any slack is taken up by moving the rail outward as far as the rail allows and then tightening it, then it physically can't move further.. (we are only talking about a few thousandths of movement and it will return to where it is after impact) ,
if the rail is shifted ( outward) in such a way it takes up that slack in the bolt hole than the ball can't move it further upon impact.
there is some initial engineering to this but its good to be aware that you can have a rail that is not solidly mounted and that may not really appear loose but won't have the same bounce as one that has a good firm mounting.
to be exacting , I think every table manufacturer has a template and that is really the real reference to the position. Manufacturers may or may not be very free about their templates as they may have some proprietary designs.
my suggestion is that if you do intend to reposition the rails, you might make an exact template first, that way youll be able to observe the differences. you can cut plywood or use cardboard or other things or some combination. fit that to the rails and measure the openings of the pockets, if you dont like your new positioning then its reversiible.
I was working on an older small brunswick and that table merely had screws up into the rails. what I found worked was to carefully lay a bit of electrical wire under the rail so when I tightened it down it became a bit like a shim at the outtside edge and that helped. If the rail twists even just slightly ( from flat to the slate) then this will also change the distance fromt he table to the ball. if the felt or staples are bunched up under the rail that can interfere too.
that proportion is very important. if the rail is too low it will launch the ball upon rebound, if its too high it will push the ball down to the felt, creating an undsrable gulley along the rail over time, and not performing so well. I'd suggest taking careful measurements so when you replace the rails you know where it started. I'd check and measure from the table to the contact area and bear in mind that contact area changes depending how much the rail is deflecting. If you take a ( moderately) hard shot at a rail and see the ball bounce and leave the cloth on its return, your rrails are too low or maybe the balls are too big. If you have someone else shoot balls at the rails you can go feel them, try to detect if the rails are actually moving upon impact, grab the rail and see if it can rock or move. If it's loose at all, fix that.
id take some practice shots at the rail and note how or if the ball lofts on it's return path. make some notes of that so if you make changes you can retest in the same way and see any differences. If you are pulling a rail off it's good to note these things and then you can look for any differences upon reinstallation.
that proportion, I think its something like 64 1/2 % of the ball size but that's information you can look up.. I could be off on the digits my point is this is directly proportional to ball size.
its common for the rails to have rubber facings which are made of rubber. some cheap tables might use a synthetic rubber. I found the right type at a place that sells parts to service water pumps, they sell real (butyl) rubber in sheets that is grippy and bouncy , rather than the fake synthetic rubber that you may get if you order the online. common o rings are often neoprene, thats not porous and not real rubber, but it does have bounce characteristics. you can order drums of rubber like that , put it in molds and harden it up with heat.
synthetic rubber is not porous, it can be poured into molds, real rubber is made by a different process, there is a great video online that shows Brunswick rubbers being made and you can see the related machinery.
Rubber can be ordered by its durometer reading ( a shore durometer is the tool to measure it) 30 is softer than 80 .. rubber goes harder with age and there is some preferable durometer number, you can measure that with the tool. it would be possible to track the rubber hardness with a measurement this way and there may be some decision to replace them upon reaching a certain hardness number. This is how the hardness of rubber is usually quantified.
rubber hardens with age so your rails become less "bouncy" its attacked by age, and by sunlight and by ozone exposure.
if you look at the cheeks of an existing pocket you will probably note that they are not parallel but a bit "splayed" open.. open more at the opening, so a ball can rattle and be thrown out, changing this , will change how it plays.
also not that on the rails of a pool table there is a shape that drives the ball down upon impact, ( at least if the cushion is triangular) but where you look at the cheeks near the pockets you may note that the ball can hit that pocket inner surface there, and not be driven down.. this is an area where if the ball hits with a lot of "top" it can easily launch right off the table, so you may want a bit of an angle on that, Don't just assume it should be vertical.. I think you may take pics of the setup you have. and make templates even if they are just cardboard and paper..
I'm not a pool table mechanic, i just learn a bit by doing and read what I can about it. An experienced mechanic who does this for a living would have different info and maybe I'm of on some points, if so feel free to call me out on it. snooker table may have a lot of differences in the roundness near the pockets and the shape of the cushions.
If you take the felt off the rails you may not that the cheeks are glued onto the rubber and may extend into the pocket beyond where the cushion rubber seats against the rail. they can be different thicknesses or doubled up to change the pocket size.
on my little Brunswick I lined this edge with real rubber and that made the pockets a bit smaller which I wanted. this was mainly because the OEM rubber is obsolete and it resembled the plug out of an old tub or basin, white and cracked... those boots are quite thick rubber..
so I had to pretty much make my own pockets and line them with rubber, what I did was bought cheapo plastic made in china pockets and put those overtop of real rubber. the cheapo pockets were thin but served their purpose in dressing up the look .. on most modern tables you can get new buckets. It's not something I'd change just for fun.
I also placed a strip of rubber, ( I used a hunk of a ladies belt) the I put the staples to hold the buckets in through the leather. the reason for this part is so if someone slams a ball into the pocket, it hits that ridge and is driven down rather than back out, or up in the air.
if you are interested in tournament play, then you can argue that it makes you a better shot to have tight pockets on your practice table. You can also argue you are just changing the conditions and how you learn to cheat the pocket is important so having a table as similar as possible is better... I dont know that there is a definite answer to that theory, perhaps that is open to your own interpretation.
If you go too fast it burns. You can cut rubber with a knife, but the pressure of the knife causes deflection. that often causes a lot of inacuracy.
cutting tools like the bit of a metal lathe or a chisel of a wood lathe or a drill bit won't work but you can use tool post grinder and the grindstone should turn opposite the piece being turned. a dremil with a stone in it will grind rubber.
a good table may attach the rail to the slate with bolts, or it may have steel backed rails which provide weight. when the inertia of the ball hits, the more dead and heavy and well bolted into place that rail is, the better bounce you will have and on a good table it's a lot more silent. materials used to make the rails matter. ideally they are heavy wood, and not some junk particleboard.
If you move the rails to tighten the pockets, then you may only be relying upon the clamping force of the bolts holding the rails (because the bolts , when loose, are a loose fit in their holes )
and that could have some "give" The rail may "give" very slightly because there is not a good fit in the bolt hole. If on the other hand , any slack is taken up by moving the rail outward as far as the rail allows and then tightening it, then it physically can't move further.. (we are only talking about a few thousandths of movement and it will return to where it is after impact) ,
if the rail is shifted ( outward) in such a way it takes up that slack in the bolt hole than the ball can't move it further upon impact.
there is some initial engineering to this but its good to be aware that you can have a rail that is not solidly mounted and that may not really appear loose but won't have the same bounce as one that has a good firm mounting.
to be exacting , I think every table manufacturer has a template and that is really the real reference to the position. Manufacturers may or may not be very free about their templates as they may have some proprietary designs.
my suggestion is that if you do intend to reposition the rails, you might make an exact template first, that way youll be able to observe the differences. you can cut plywood or use cardboard or other things or some combination. fit that to the rails and measure the openings of the pockets, if you dont like your new positioning then its reversiible.
I was working on an older small brunswick and that table merely had screws up into the rails. what I found worked was to carefully lay a bit of electrical wire under the rail so when I tightened it down it became a bit like a shim at the outtside edge and that helped. If the rail twists even just slightly ( from flat to the slate) then this will also change the distance fromt he table to the ball. if the felt or staples are bunched up under the rail that can interfere too.
that proportion is very important. if the rail is too low it will launch the ball upon rebound, if its too high it will push the ball down to the felt, creating an undsrable gulley along the rail over time, and not performing so well. I'd suggest taking careful measurements so when you replace the rails you know where it started. I'd check and measure from the table to the contact area and bear in mind that contact area changes depending how much the rail is deflecting. If you take a ( moderately) hard shot at a rail and see the ball bounce and leave the cloth on its return, your rrails are too low or maybe the balls are too big. If you have someone else shoot balls at the rails you can go feel them, try to detect if the rails are actually moving upon impact, grab the rail and see if it can rock or move. If it's loose at all, fix that.
id take some practice shots at the rail and note how or if the ball lofts on it's return path. make some notes of that so if you make changes you can retest in the same way and see any differences. If you are pulling a rail off it's good to note these things and then you can look for any differences upon reinstallation.
that proportion, I think its something like 64 1/2 % of the ball size but that's information you can look up.. I could be off on the digits my point is this is directly proportional to ball size.
its common for the rails to have rubber facings which are made of rubber. some cheap tables might use a synthetic rubber. I found the right type at a place that sells parts to service water pumps, they sell real (butyl) rubber in sheets that is grippy and bouncy , rather than the fake synthetic rubber that you may get if you order the online. common o rings are often neoprene, thats not porous and not real rubber, but it does have bounce characteristics. you can order drums of rubber like that , put it in molds and harden it up with heat.
synthetic rubber is not porous, it can be poured into molds, real rubber is made by a different process, there is a great video online that shows Brunswick rubbers being made and you can see the related machinery.
Rubber can be ordered by its durometer reading ( a shore durometer is the tool to measure it) 30 is softer than 80 .. rubber goes harder with age and there is some preferable durometer number, you can measure that with the tool. it would be possible to track the rubber hardness with a measurement this way and there may be some decision to replace them upon reaching a certain hardness number. This is how the hardness of rubber is usually quantified.
rubber hardens with age so your rails become less "bouncy" its attacked by age, and by sunlight and by ozone exposure.
if you look at the cheeks of an existing pocket you will probably note that they are not parallel but a bit "splayed" open.. open more at the opening, so a ball can rattle and be thrown out, changing this , will change how it plays.
also not that on the rails of a pool table there is a shape that drives the ball down upon impact, ( at least if the cushion is triangular) but where you look at the cheeks near the pockets you may note that the ball can hit that pocket inner surface there, and not be driven down.. this is an area where if the ball hits with a lot of "top" it can easily launch right off the table, so you may want a bit of an angle on that, Don't just assume it should be vertical.. I think you may take pics of the setup you have. and make templates even if they are just cardboard and paper..
I'm not a pool table mechanic, i just learn a bit by doing and read what I can about it. An experienced mechanic who does this for a living would have different info and maybe I'm of on some points, if so feel free to call me out on it. snooker table may have a lot of differences in the roundness near the pockets and the shape of the cushions.
If you take the felt off the rails you may not that the cheeks are glued onto the rubber and may extend into the pocket beyond where the cushion rubber seats against the rail. they can be different thicknesses or doubled up to change the pocket size.
on my little Brunswick I lined this edge with real rubber and that made the pockets a bit smaller which I wanted. this was mainly because the OEM rubber is obsolete and it resembled the plug out of an old tub or basin, white and cracked... those boots are quite thick rubber..
so I had to pretty much make my own pockets and line them with rubber, what I did was bought cheapo plastic made in china pockets and put those overtop of real rubber. the cheapo pockets were thin but served their purpose in dressing up the look .. on most modern tables you can get new buckets. It's not something I'd change just for fun.
I also placed a strip of rubber, ( I used a hunk of a ladies belt) the I put the staples to hold the buckets in through the leather. the reason for this part is so if someone slams a ball into the pocket, it hits that ridge and is driven down rather than back out, or up in the air.
if you are interested in tournament play, then you can argue that it makes you a better shot to have tight pockets on your practice table. You can also argue you are just changing the conditions and how you learn to cheat the pocket is important so having a table as similar as possible is better... I dont know that there is a definite answer to that theory, perhaps that is open to your own interpretation.
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Lightning Strikes Bowling Alley- Fowler Street Ft. Myers- opens at 10 am in the summer - 3 9 ft. Diamond pro cut standards with dirty Simonis and dirty balls- no table maintenance whatsoever- bar table lights over 9 footers!
Southern Billiards has 2 9ft. Diamonds- I believe that they are 4 1/4 inch pockets, I have played on those as well.
Personally I do not like either room for that reason. I will play on the two 9 foot Gold Crowns shimmed to 4 1/2 inch pockets at the 8 ball Lounge- Ft. Myers on route 41- they are altered in such a way that 2 balls will fit into the pocket jaws and the edges of the balls touch the pocket facings with no room to spare - side pockets were not altered correctly and will spit out balls hit at an angle and medium speed.
Mis Cue lounge on Carrell avenue off route 41 in Ft. Myers has 8 9 foot Gandy like tables- fairly well maintained but you would not like the 4 7/8 inch pockets- I believe that 2 of the tables are shimmed to close to 4 1/2 inches.
Smoking allowed everywhere except the Lightning Strikes Bowling alley pool room.
The rates differ on these tables?
The diamond rails are dowelled into the corners, so you can't space them apart. (Would that leave a gap on a GC anyway between the rail and the corner casting?)
Diamonds were always available in both "league cut" and "pro cut". So you should be able to widen the pockets to at least league cut, which was I believe 4.75" at the mouth. I played on two diamond 7' league cut tables that were 5" at the mouth, bought from the Philly Expo. The cushion would have to be trimmed as mentioned above.
The only way you would have a Diamond tighter than 4.5" pro cut is if someone hired a mechanic to tighten them. Diamond does NOW offer tighter pockets for one pocket, but that is recent, and not a lot of those tables are out there.
Diamonds in general are a lot tougher to pocket balls than GC. The pocket mouth is smaller, the pocket angle is steeper, the shelf is deeper, and the cushions are bouncier which can kick a ball out a bit more than a GC.
Your mechanic should have no problem making the pockets play easier. I like the suggestion above of changing the facing angle. That seems to have more impact than the pocket mouth, IMO. I'd change both personally, however.
Diamonds were always available in both "league cut" and "pro cut". So you should be able to widen the pockets to at least league cut, which was I believe 4.75" at the mouth. I played on two diamond 7' league cut tables that were 5" at the mouth, bought from the Philly Expo. The cushion would have to be trimmed as mentioned above.
The only way you would have a Diamond tighter than 4.5" pro cut is if someone hired a mechanic to tighten them. Diamond does NOW offer tighter pockets for one pocket, but that is recent, and not a lot of those tables are out there.
Diamonds in general are a lot tougher to pocket balls than GC. The pocket mouth is smaller, the pocket angle is steeper, the shelf is deeper, and the cushions are bouncier which can kick a ball out a bit more than a GC.
Your mechanic should have no problem making the pockets play easier. I like the suggestion above of changing the facing angle. That seems to have more impact than the pocket mouth, IMO. I'd change both personally, however.
I'm just waiting, reading everyone's suggestions, including the ones about adjusting the pocket openings like GC, getting a lot of laughs also about just cut the pocket openings back, it'll be fine
those suggestions were obviously made by someone that has never seen the results of a saw blade pulling the cushions off. And a grinder, to change the pocket angles, really
I'm still waiting for the OP to throw out some pocket opening numbers, NO ONE on here has ANY idea what he's referring to as to tight
hell, they could be 4 1/2" ProCut pockets for all anyone knows, and maybe, just maybe the OP couldn't make a ball, even if the rails were taken OFF the table, does anyone know anything about his abilities??? And sometimes, the table is just a better player than the shooter is! But the balls not going into the pockets, everyone knows, is ALWAYS the tables fault, and NEVER the shooters fault!!!
You must have skipped right past post #5 where he talks about his last straight pool game to 100 on a non-diamond one week ago. If his numbers are not exaggerated, he can flat play. And he's 75 years old, so I'm sure his numbers when younger were higher....snip...
I'm still waiting for the OP to throw out some pocket opening numbers, NO ONE on here has ANY idea what he's referring to as to tight
Did I miss the part about what size of pockets he's talking about?