Predator cushions on Sept 20 play perfect

The_JV said:
Curious as to why you credit Diamond with that... Are we assuming that builders prior to Diamond refused to shim pockets on request..?

Or is more likely diamond tables happen to be the product of choice while tournaments wanted tighter pockets, so they were willing to satisfy that need at the time..?
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Shimmed pockets don't play normally. To play correctly, a table must be "designed" for a sub-4 1/2" pocket. The subrail must be extended (or built) to support a normal pocket facing, so that the table does not reject a ball hit firmly into the pocket face.

Playing on a shimmed table very much affects how one plays the game. It affects the position routes one plays. It affects the speed/spin one chooses to use. Prior to Diamond, Brunswick built bucket tables and relied on table mechanics to "fix" them.
 
iusedtoberich said:
Every player's room in the country had triple shimmed GC's before the Diamond "pro-cut" pocket came out. Everyone in this thread, including Russ, knows that.

Not to derail too much more, but why not.... I've argued that tighter pockets don't even make a player better. If you mishit a ball, and it still falls, that means you hit it too fat, so your CB won't move the right amount anyway. It might not stop your run immediately, but it will hamper your position, which will probably stop your run soon. And if you don't figure that out super fast (even on bucket tables) you will never in a million years become a runout player.

No matter how big or how small the pockets, you still aim for the facing of the pocket. That's why good players play pretty much the same on bucket GC's with factory pockets or the Diamond "one pocket" cut pockets. They are all hitting the facing of the pocket so the ball will drop AND they will get their position. Watching even a top local A player (let's say 700 Fargo) play on a tight table and a loose table, is not that much different. They will run out on both.

You can develop this skill on bucket valley pockets. It makes no difference. Its the CB that separates the good from the average players, not if the ball fell due to a big pocket.
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Yeah, and they played like absolute crap. Shimming pockets without extending the subrail (so that you can put on a normal pocket facing..) increases the likelihood of a well-hit ball being rejected.

And if you think that shimmed pockets DO play normally compared to Diamonds for good players, I highly encourage you to come to Germany and stay with me, and we can go to a few local halls, and maybe even watch some Oberliga matches. Gold Crown rails play slower than Diamonds, and as such, they require firmer hits, which greatly increases the odds of a firm hit into the pocket facing getting spit out. This is also a well known phenomenon in "player's rooms" across America, that was often used to trap road players.

This is so much a thing, that it encourages German players to solely focus on shotmaking, hitting the center of the pocket, that it limits their position play.
 
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TrxR said:
They aren't Chinese. They are made in Spain
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You still couldn't give me a Predator table. I saw them the first time in person at the WI Open a couple of years ago. The legs look goofy with or without the lights on, the pockets sound horrible when pocketing balls, I just don't like them. Fortunately what I like and don't like will not affect the pool world as a whole.
iusedtoberich said:
Diamond as a company, IMO, is responsible for the uptick in Banks and One Pocket, due to the yearly DCC. As far as overall play improvement, I agree with JV's points on that. If you looked purely at table brands vs player performance, one could actually argue Diamonds made players worse. Diamonds are prevalent in the USA, and almost not-existent anywhere else. Yet, USA players are way, way, way behind the rest of the world. The last time USA players were best in the world (or at least in contention for best in the world) was actually in the 90's when Gold Crowns were still the top tournament and pool room table.

I know this isn't the reason, just like ice cream does not cause more boating accidents;) Just pointing out that its impossible Diamond tables did anything to make players better.
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So Diamond did not set the industry standard at 4 1/2" pockets? My Gold Crown had corners over 5". Now some tournaments have taken pocket size down to 4", seems to me Diamond was kind of the leader in "Pro Cut" pockets.
 
ShortBusRuss said:
Shimmed pockets don't play normally. To play correctly, a table must be "designed" for a sub-4 1/2" pocket. The subrail must be extended (or built) to support a normal pocket facing, so that the table does not reject a ball hit firmly into the pocket face.

Playing on a shimmed table very much affects how one plays the game. It affects the position routes one plays. It affects the speed/spin one chooses to use. Prior to Diamond, Brunswick built bucket tables and relied on table mechanics to "fix" them.
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Wholeheartedly agree with shims vs subrail extension. For a table to play 'correctly' the facings should be minimal in thickness and have adequate support behind them. If you tell me that diamond was the first company to adjust the hardstop on the mitersaw to make rails longer, then I don't have a problem giving them the credit. Just doesn't seem like something all that earth shattering and/or innovative.

For a table to also play 'correctly'. The banks should follow correct geometry. Diamonds typically don't, and we're back to the beginning of this thread.

So we can give diamond both credit for providing tighter pockets on production tables, and muddying the waters as to rails should produce banks.
 
Question for everyone: "what do you think of the cushion bounce/angle of the Predator table in the video link on post 1?". Nothing else about the Predator table. Just the cushion.
 
TrxR said:
They aren't Chinese. They are made in Spain
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Shoot, I forgot they are Kim Steele tables iirc. They do look (and crack), just like plastic though. The seams match up really well though. Much better than any GC I've owned.
 
iusedtoberich said:
Diamond as a company, IMO, is responsible for the uptick in Banks and One Pocket, due to the yearly DCC. As far as overall play improvement, I agree with JV's points on that. If you looked purely at table brands vs player performance, one could actually argue Diamonds made players worse. Diamonds are prevalent in the USA, and almost not-existent anywhere else. Yet, USA players are way, way, way behind the rest of the world. The last time USA players were best in the world (or at least in contention for best in the world) was actually in the 90's when Gold Crowns were still the top tournament and pool room table.

I know this isn't the reason, just like ice cream does not cause more boating accidents;) Just pointing out that its impossible Diamond tables did anything to make players better.
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There are rooms opening in Europe that are installing Diamonds. So there’s that
 
ShortBusRuss said:
Shimmed pockets don't play normally. To play correctly, a table must be "designed" for a sub-4 1/2" pocket. The subrail must be extended (or built) to support a normal pocket facing, so that the table does not reject a ball hit firmly into the pocket face.

Playing on a shimmed table very much affects how one plays the game. It affects the position routes one plays. It affects the speed/spin one chooses to use. Prior to Diamond, Brunswick built bucket tables and relied on table mechanics to "fix" them.
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Thats OK, I wish everyone that buys a Predator table for commercial use good luck, the tables won't hold up under hack work, and repeatedly changing the cloth, they're disposable tables with a 5-10 year lifespan!

PS, neither will the Rasson tables!!
 
TrxR said:
I didn't think Brunswick offered 4.5" pockets until the Gold Crown 5? Those look more like 5" pockets could be wrong though.
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From a quick search I guess it was the GC IV tournament came with the 4.5" pockets and it didn't come out till 1997 from the Brunswick literature I could find.
 
realkingcobra said:
Thats OK, I wish everyone that buys a Predator table for commercial use good luck, the tables won't hold up under hack work, and repeatedly changing the cloth, they're disposable tables with a 5-10 year lifespan!

PS, neither will the Rasson tables!!
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At least those 5-10 years will have nice bounces :):):):):):):)
 
TrxR said:
From a quick search I guess it was the GC IV tournament came with the 4.5" pockets and it didn't come out till 1997 from the Brunswick literature I could find.
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Yes GC4 was the first to offer “tournament edition” with the tight factory pockets.

But plenty of events had tighter mechanic modified pockets. I was just watching a US Open match from 1992 or 1992 I think it was Tommy Kennedy but I forgot the opponent. (The year after he won). The commentators were saying these were tight pockets and Pat was in the chat as well. They also said Leonard Bludworth made all the lights.

I’ll agree with all that factory tight pockets with extended rails are better than extra shims. But let’s not get carried away. Shimmed pockets don’t ruin the game. I’ve seen tons of action on triple shimmed GC’s where the players ran out and banked like butter playing both 9 ball and one hole.

Danny Bassavich came to my home room in about 1999 and played the owner (a pro) a few sets of 9 ball on the front triple shimmed GC. They broke even. Both played without any issue.
 
iusedtoberich said:
Yes GC4 was the first to offer “tournament edition” with the tight factory pockets.

But plenty of events had tighter mechanic modified pockets. I was just watching a US Open match from 1992 or 1992 I think it was Tommy Kennedy but I forgot the opponent. (The year after he won). The commentators were saying these were tight pockets and Pat was in the chat as well. They also said Leonard Bludworth made all the lights.

I’ll agree with all that factory tight pockets with extended rails are better than extra shims. But let’s not get carried away. Shimmed pockets don’t ruin the game. I’ve seen tons of action on triple shimmed GC’s where the players ran out and banked like butter playing both 9 ball and one hole.

Danny Bassavich came to my home room in about 1999 and played the owner (a pro) a few sets of 9 ball on the front triple shimmed GC. They broke even. Both played without any issue.
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I don't think anybody said you can't make a bucket table play decent "if you have a good table mechanic". But there is a big difference when you can buy it straight from the manufacturer set up to be challenging to pros.

Either way... I have rarely been able to get club members over to my house to play, as I live 25 minutes away. I currently have a Gold Crown with extended rails, that ALREADY plays better than the vast majority of tables in Germany (still dog slow rails, though..). But now that the club knows I got a Diamond coming in, I already have 2 people with an appointment to come over. Read into that what you will.

And we have a hall about an hour away opening up with ALL Diamond tables. I fully expect it to become a major player in the Oberliga and above leagues. I wouldn't be even a little surprised if multiple top German players whose job field allows it, moved closer to that club.
 
realkingcobra said:
Made it out if the 400's yet with your Fargo rate😅🤣😂😅🤣😂😅🤣😂

Back when I was still playing there was no such thing as Fargo rate, it was called Bank rate, how fast could you get money out of the bank to cover your losses!!!😂🤣😅
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"What have you won lately?" ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
 
ShortBusRuss said:
I don't think anybody said you can't make a bucket table play decent "if you have a good table mechanic". But there is a big difference when you can buy it straight from the manufacturer set up to be challenging to pros.

Either way... I have rarely been able to get club members over to my house to play, as I live 25 minutes away. I currently have a Gold Crown with extended rails, that ALREADY plays better than the vast majority of tables in Germany (still dog slow rails, though..). But now that the club knows I got a Diamond coming in, I already have 2 people with an appointment to come over. Read into that what you will.

And we have a hall about an hour away opening up with ALL Diamond tables. I fully expect it to become a major player in the Oberliga and above leagues. I wouldn't be even a little surprised if multiple top German players whose job field allows it, moved closer to that club.
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I hope you like your table, I honestly do. I would have bought a Diamond myself because I love the support they give the sport. Brunswick has abonded the sport for 25 years now. I even write Brunswick on their FB page every 6 months or so to light a fire under them to get back into the sport, and they never respond. I do think if they never stopped sponsoring events, there would probably be half Brunswick, half Diamonds, in all new rooms opened the past 20 years.

What are the major brands in your area there? The Dynamic brand? (I may have it wrong, apologies). What's you opinion of them compared to your GC?
 
iusedtoberich said:
I hope you like your table, I honestly do. I would have bought a Diamond myself because I love the support they give the sport. Brunswick has abonded the sport for 25 years now. I even write Brunswick on their FB page every 6 months or so to light a fire under them to get back into the sport, and they never respond. I do think if they never stopped sponsoring events, there would probably be half Brunswick, half Diamonds, in all new rooms opened the past 20 years.

What are the major brands in your area there? The Dynamic brand? (I may have it wrong, apologies). What's you opinion of them compared to your GC?
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Mostly old Gold Crowns, everywhere. I think there "may" be some Dynamics, but I think those are mostly at the Eurotour stops. Have not played much on them, but did watch the top players play on them at the Eurotour events, and they play embarassingly loose. You wanna know why Filler does not win every Eurotour event he plays? That's why.

And almost all the Gold Crowns in Germany I have played on, play bad (well, maybe not "bad", but let's say.. "suboptimal"), due to shimmed pockets instead of extended subrails, combined with lack of air conditioning. I constantly see the pockets spit out balls. And for reference, my rather minor club alone, has multiple players that play above 630 Fargorate, with one around 680. I beat a player around that speed in an Oberliga 10 ball match I subbed in on, specifically because of a pocket spitting out a shot. Granted, I played well after that shot, and DID run out a few racks to get the job done, so the tables play at least well enough for that, but for my money, these tables play in such a way that encourages pure shotmaking over a balanced shotmaking/position style.

To frame it another way... I acknowledge Germans play at a higher level than Americans because all the Gold Crowns here get the pockets reduced, and it encourages fundamentals work in order to overcome the limitations of the table, in order to hit the center of the pocket, to avoid balls getting spit out. BUT, in my opinion, tight Diamond tables would serve the same purpose, while allowing firmer shots into the pocket face, and more consistent slower rolls on the shots that require it.

I think German players WANT Diamonds, but remember.. Most German clubs are smaller affairs of 4-8 tables, funded by monthly membership fees and candy/chips/soda/alcohol sales, and they can't generate enough income to purchase new tables, so they make do with what they have, and that is a bunch of 20+ year old Gold Crowns. It may take another 10-12 years before we see a transition to newer tables, simply because of the economics of the thing.
 
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