US Open 9-Ball, 2023, Atlantic City, Sep 25-30

[ShortBusRuss]

I was thinking the same thing...tighter pockets certainly favor the fundamentally superior And straighter shooting Europeans. I wonder if casual or new American fans will tune in if there are no competitive Americans? Sure us die-hards will cheer on a Ko brother or a Polish player with no vowels in his last name, but the stereotypical league player, that shoots with a glove, a $700 dollar cue, and a JB case, likely has a "Merica T shirt stashed somewhere. My bet is that fan will tune out if there are no Americans able to compete in 5- 10 years or whenever SVB hangs it up

Bruh. In the mid-90s when we were still riding the wave of pool popularity due to The Color of Money and Earl Strickland was absolutely crushing it, 95% of the league players I associated with, had absolutely no clue who Earl and Efren were. League players generally don't bother to watch professional pool AT ALL.

Again.. We're just making up reasons for pool's fall in America, without considering how hard it is for today's American youth to even FIND a table they are allowed to play on. It gets really tiresome after the hundredth time of people being WAY offbase about the reasons why pool is not doing well in America. Euros have organized clubs, that while they might serve alcohol, don't have the uber-restrictions against minors being in those clubs, while America by and large, does. Euros also have better training programs, because the league systems are set up all over Europe specifically as a farm system for talent, whereas leagues in America are set up to get that $5 per month. THAT'S the issue. And no young players have access to pool in North America unless their parents own a table at home, or their family owns a pool hall (Morra and SVB...) when they are in their teens.

And here's a clue.. Doesn't matter how big the pockets are, if Americans have worse fundamentals than Euros. Sure, it might lead to an American upset over a Euro once in a while, but it won't make much of a difference in who wins the events. If you open up the pockets, American players outside of Skylar and SVB will run a few more racks per set, while the Euros will run A LOT more racks per set.

 

[iusedtoberich]

The production quality stinks IMO. The background music is horrible, and it's LOUD. The commentators have been boring, every single one of them. The commentator's mics have been very low. This is the worst MR production I've purchased.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

Do you mean for his break? Or the rack after rack after rack thing?


That is being a bit out of touch with todays youth. For instance, my son and his friends could have 10 pool halls nearby and would not give them the time of day. Heck, I have a brand new Diamond downstairs and he could care less if it was even there. Online pool, maybe.

But, pool used to be the most played game in the U.S., with Pool halls everywhere.

Sure.. When young people who were bored had nothing better to do with their time. Now, they have tons and tons of entertainment options which were wholly unavailable pre-mid-90s... 200 channels, and a metric ****ton of games the can compete at online that pay way better than pool. That is why your son and friends have no interest in pool. They can literally jump on a game together from WHEREVER in the states they might currently be, and compete against each other, or work together to compete against other youth. Pool is HARD to access in comparison. And WAY harder to get good at. You blame the kids for taking the path of least resistance? Heck, they can start a Youtube channel and it would be an infinitely more efficient use of their time, if money was the goal.

It had little to no effect on professional pool back then. Professional pool and normal people playing games of pool are quite distant and unrelated.

Incorrect. It absolutely had an effect. Stories on this very forum abound with tales of watching the hustlers and such through the glass window of the pool hall, wishing they could play like the grownups, because it looked so cool. You might have even heard a Bob Segar song that expressed this very idea of watching pool through the window (and wanting to play, because it was somewhat taboo..). I damn well remember what it was like being a kid growing up in the late 70s and 80s, bored out of my skull, and getting MAYBE three channels on the TV. I literally took a cab to a pool hall the night before I went into the Army, when I barely played 10 games in my life before that. PROS, in fact, have told stories of this being how they got into pool. Back when pool halls might be right in the high traffic areas of town (because it was profitable to run a pool hall). These days, pool halls are relegated to run down industrial areas, where kids NEVER see anybody through the window.

More kids playing pool, meant that a certain percentage of those kids were going to take the game seriously, and eventually turn pro, if they had the talent. More kids playing automatically = more pros, assuming the game could support them. And with the hustling culture pre-1990s, cheap gas, and lots of money floating around, there was decent incentive for young, aggressive, talented males. Perhaps you ought to look at the list of world beaters America had in the 1960's-early 1990's... Before video games and 200 channels on TV pull kid's attention away from the pool hall and kept them home.

The past proves that without doubt. We were speaking of professional pool, viewership, and in return, better sponsers outside of pool. Those things would naturally bring the younger talent you speak of.

Oh really? And just where are these kids going to practice? Doesn't matter if kids see it on TV and think they'd like to do that, if their parents don't own a 2000sqft house with a basement for a pool table, or their family does not own a pool hall, or if they live 20+ miles from the nearest pool hall that will allow them to play.

But, viewership is not going to come when it is boring to watch and I have had enough people over when watching it to know they all think it is quite boring to watch. But, throw a rant of Earl's on and things change...

Personality has a lot to do with it. So, I certainly disagree with you on that fact. Anyone who has watched pool in Earl's prime would tell you that. Crowds around Earl (and those others with personality) while everyone else played in the dark. I remember Darren Appleton saying something along the same lines. People want to see the players personalities.

They don't want to see robots, all dressed the same, playing safeties due to their tight pockets.

But, today's pool can enjoy it's 2000-3000 or whatever pool loving viewers on PPV. Makes no difference to me of course.

I'll agree that Earl was a big draw.. For the people already interested in pool. But here's the thing. Pool as it is now may not be interesting to watch for AMERICAN players, as America as a whole is not interested in the game any more. But Matchroom is marketing the game to many other countries, that have a TON more players than we do, and take the game dead seriously, and watch the streams. And whom actually pay for DAZN memberships to watch this pool style you call boring. My German friends absolutely dig what Matchroom is doing.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

I assume you are trying with DAZN. There may be apps that get around whatever DAZN is doing to prevent image/video copies. Until we find one, I guess you have to put your phone on a tripod and take a picture of your screen.

You can use a clipping tool on PC, and do a full screen snapshot on any phone, any tablet. Most people don't know the button combination to press to do so on mobile devices. There is literally nothing a site/app can do to prevent this.

 

[The_JV]

The production quality stinks IMO. The background music is horrible, and it's LOUD. The commentators have been boring, every single one of them. The commentator's mics have been very low. This is the worst MR production I've purchased.

Not sure if you have witnessed a MR event live. This is my first one. However they spent more time dialing in the lights on the 2nd table on Sunday then I've seen rooms spend reclothing a table...lol. Effort in production value is not the problem.

I haven't heard the commentary. I can say they are about..... .....>100ft away from the two streaming tables. Mic volume must be entirely to avoid picking up more surrounding noise.

Taste in music is subjective but I prefer what you're hardly paying attention to then soft rock or country.

 

[iusedtoberich]

You can use a clipping tool on PC, and do a full screen snapshot on any phone, any tablet. Most people don't know the button combination to press to do so on mobile devices. There is literally nothing a site/app can do to prevent this.

On the Apple side it does not work. On the Mac computer, the screenshot tool somehow knows a copyrighted video is being watched and blacks out the screenshot. The exact same thing happens on an iPhone when taking a screenshot while DAZN is playing.

 

[The_JV]

As long as the shooter can pocket a ball down the rail, come 5 rails around for shape 4'' works....BUT if this pocket size/facing set up does not allow that, the equipment then changes the game then it's wrong.

Speed of the tables is more of an issue then pocket size.

Outside tables are surprisingly slow considering the brand spanking new conditions. The room Sunday night was cool but a tad humid. Still on the cool side.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

Chess on YouTube and Twitch is incredibly popular with its own crop of pros and influencers with decent audiences.

American chess has lots of young players (chess isn’t blocked on school computers and kids don’t get in trouble for playing it on their phones), which drives everything else as someone noted above.

I play chess, never got past the E player stage myself, as my brain simply won't hold the tactical patterns in such a way as to be instantly recognizable. That being said, a lot of the Youtube channels with grandmasters either teaching, or playing each other, or hustling the hustlers in Central Park, are incredibly entertaining. Taking on all comers in online chess apps/sites.. (And sometimes Magnus Carlsen shows up under an anonymous name to show them what's up in some blitz games, lol.. The difference being, the players are actually making an effort to create content all on their own, without being led around by the organizers of events. Just like in pool, it is great fun to watch a fantastic player get steamrolled by the world's best, when they were not expecting it.

I mean.. Who DOESN'T want to see a hawtie female grandmaster acting like she can't play and crushing a 2000-rated player in Central Park accustomed to just robbing people for $5.00 a game? And making it look like it is the absolute easiest thing in the world?

Those folks know something pro pool players don't, apparently.

Oh, in reference to chess having lots of young players? Their minds are incredibly flexible at 5-6 years old, and they are absolute sponges for the intricacies of the game, and they love doing and competing at something that they have an talent for, even at that young age. They want to win every bit as bad as a world champion pool player. Tales abound of kids crying their eyes out after losing an important game. And good lord, folks like to hear stories about the 7 year old kid who can beat 99% of the players on the planet. Youth sells sport.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I play chess, never got past the E player stage myself, as my brain simply won't hold the tactical patterns in such a way as to be instantly recognizable. That being said, a lot of the Youtube channels with grandmasters either teaching, or playing each other, or hustling the hustlers in Central Park, are incredibly entertaining. Taking on all comers in online chess apps/sites.. (And sometimes Magnus Carlsen shows up under an anonymous name to show them what's up in some blitz games, lol.. The difference being, the players are actually making an effort to create content all on their own, without being led around by the organizers of events. Just like in pool, it is great fun to watch a fantastic player get steamrolled by the world's best, when they were not expecting it.

I mean.. Who DOESN'T want to see a hawtie female grandmaster acting like she can't play and crushing a 2000-rated player in Central Park accustomed to just robbing people for $5.00 a game? And making it look like it is the absolute easiest thing in the world?

Those folks know something pro pool players don't, apparently.

Oh, in reference to chess having lots of young players? Their minds are incredibly flexible at 5-6 years old, and they are absolute sponges for the intricacies of the game, and they love doing and competing at something that they have an talent for, even at that young age. They want to win every bit as bad as a world champion pool player. Tales abound of kids crying their eyes out after losing an important game. And good lord, folks like to hear stories about the 7 year old kid who can beat 99% of the players on the planet. Youth sells sport.

I watch those chess videos occasionally on youtube also, and like them a lot. The one on DAZN today I watched just a couple minutes of. I found it boring and turned it off.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

On the Apple side it does not work. On the Mac computer, the screenshot tool somehow knows a copyrighted video is being watched and blacks out the screenshot. The exact same thing happens on an iPhone when taking a screenshot while DAZN is playing.

Then download an app that does not do those checks?

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

Sure.. When young people who were bored had nothing better to do with their time. Now, they have tons and tons of entertainment options which were wholly unavailable pre-mid-90s... 200 channels, and a metric ****ton of games the can compete at online that pay way better than pool. That is why your son and friends have no interest in pool. They can literally jump on a game together from WHEREVER in the states they might currently be, and compete against each other, or work together to compete against other youth. Pool is HARD to access in comparison. And WAY harder to get good at. You blame the kids for taking the path of least resistance? Heck, they can start a Youtube channel and it would be an infinitely more efficient use of their time, if money was the goal.


Incorrect. It absolutely had an effect. Stories on this very forum abound with tales of watching the hustlers and such through the glass window of the pool hall, wishing they could play like the grownups, because it looked so cool. You might have even heard a Bob Segar song that expressed this very idea of watching pool through the window (and wanting to play, because it was somewhat taboo..). I damn well remember what it was like being a kid growing up in the late 70s and 80s, bored out of my skull, and getting MAYBE three channels on the TV. I literally took a cab to a pool hall the night before I went into the Army, when I barely played 10 games in my life before that.

More kids playing pool, meant that a certain percentage of those kids were going to take the game seriously, and eventually turn pro, if they had the talent. More kids playing automatically = more pros, assuming the game could support them. And with the hustling culture pre-1990s, cheap gas, and lots of money floating around, there was decent incentive for young, aggressive, talented males. Perhaps you ought to look at the list of world beaters America had in the 1960's-early 1990's... Before video games and 200 channels on TV pull kid's attention away from the pool hall and kept them home.


Oh really? And just where are these kids going to practice? Doesn't matter if kids see it on TV and think they'd like to do that, if their parents don't own a 2000sqft house with a basement for a pool table, or their family does not own a pool hall, or if they live 20+ miles from the nearest pool hall that will allow them to play.



I'll agree that Earl was a big draw.. For the people already interested in pool. But here's the thing. Pool as it is now may not be interesting to watch for AMERICAN players, as America as a whole is not interested in the game any more. But Matchroom is marketing the game to many other countries, that have a TON more players than we do, and take the game dead seriously, and watch the streams. And whom actually pay for DAZN memberships to watch this pool style you call boring. My German friends absolutely dig what Matchroom is doing.

Show any example where professional pools prize money skyrocketed like the popularity of pool did back then? The top prize was Resorts. And it was simply because it was a top heavy tournament to pay that amount to 1st. It had no effect on professional pool. If it did, the prize money of that time would have reflected it's popularity. The IPT would not be considered, as that was just a rich fraud being a fraud..

When you look through those glass windows you would have seen players and hustlers (some much better than others), not professional pool. Professional pool always had low prize money, through it all.

Where are those kids going to practice? At one of the almost 7000 pool halls this country has. How many pool halls are there in all of Europe? If someone wants to play pool, they will find a pool hall. But you have to have something that makes younger people here want to play. And there is not much to do that.

"Doesn't matter how big the pockets are, if Americans have worse fundamentals than Euros."

And what does that have to do with general viewership? You are thinking about what players want and a players perspective, not viewers. I believe in all of my posts I have seperated the two quite clearly.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

Show any example where professional pools prize money skyrocketed like the popularity of pool did back then?

I did not say the motivation to take up the game came from tournament prize funds. I said it came from the allure of the game, and as "long as the game had SOME ability to support them" (road players), that THIS was the allure. How many wannabe road players sprouted from having seen TCOM or The Hustler? Some of those couldn't hack it, but the others became... Buddy Hall... Grady Matthews.. Kim Davenport.. And a whole host of absolute monsters we had in the 80s, who got their start either by being exposed to the game vicariously, or picked up the game because of this cool movie they saw.

The top prize was Resorts. And it was simply because it was a top heavy tournament to pay that amount to 1st. It had no effect on professional pool. If it did, the prize money of that time would have reflected it's popularity. The IPT would not be considered, as that was just a rich fraud being a fraud..

When you look through those glass windows you would have seen players and hustlers (some much better than others), not professional pool. Professional pool always had low prize money, through it all.

Where are those kids going to practice? At one of the almost 7000 pool halls this country has. How many pool halls are there in all of Europe? If someone wants to play pool, they will find a pool hall. But you have to have something that makes younger people here want to play. And there is not much to do that.

"Doesn't matter how big the pockets are, if Americans have worse fundamentals than Euros."

And what does that have to do with general viewership? You are thinking about what players want and a players perspective, not viewers. I believe in all of my posts I have seperated the two quite clearly.

I believe you specifically mentioned the idea of viewership being driven by having an American to root for, did you not? And then you mentioned pocket size immediately afterwards in relation to this.

 

[Lightnin']

Well said....I'm 1000% in agreement.
...This 4" pocket I feel is a disturbing trend, maybe it would suit 10ball ...but NOT 9ball. 9 ball is supposed to be creative, explosive and fun to watch and play. The Conneticut winner break event was exactly that....FUN to watch. These 2023 US Open matches are no fun at all from a league players perspective. It's all laying up safety/strategic play and no taking on any kind of bank that's not dead on, or runout that's not too difficult, let alone carom, or breakout or god forbid... a combo! League players love seeing those combo/carom 9's ...it brings back the O'l... "Amus, are you a hustler" days. ; )
And the trickle down is that some rooms start adopting Diamond tables with 4- 1/4" pockets....that never get reclothed or even cleaned in many many 10's of YEARS of daily rough play....those table now play soooooo bad, only the smooth stroking Filipinos have any chance of avoiding soo many rattled balls. Whereas those old Gold and Black crowns still played beautifully even with the worst cloth imaginable.
Soo what happens is the dreams of league players ever competing in a major event....gets crushed completely.
My thinking is the top Pros don't mind bc it keep the prize money in their pockets and away from any upsets.
LOL ...that's my novel for the day. Enjoy.

They did announce 4" on the broadcast yesterday. I have no idea what Matchroom is thinking. They are obviously amazing for the sport, but this decision is disappointing. They've taken all of the exciting shots out of the game. Players are ducking instead of shooting banks or difficult shots. Why would you want to take out caroms, kiss-shots, tough combos, banks, even jumps - all out of the game. And replace them with what? Just ducking and kicking. I mean, they don't even want to spin the ball right now. I know snooker does really well, but then watch snooker. To me, this takes a lot of the knowledge out of the game from guys who play banks, straight pool, 1-pocket, etc., and just gives the advantage to people who work more on mechanics and fundamentals than learning all the shots and all the other games.

Another thing I found interesting yesterday, after watching for several hours. I always heard that we need to tighten the pockets to take out some of the luck aspect of 9-ball. Yesterday, from what I saw - the opposite is true. Everyone was missing so many balls that these short races came down to whether you hooked your opponent when you missed or left it in the jaws. It only takes one or two rolls to turn a race to 9, and you're better off missing by a lot - at least from what I saw. I can handle the snooker fans complaining when a ball rattles in on a 4.5" pocket, I don't know about the rest of you. That's tough enough, and at least the players will shoot at their hole, when the pockets are 4.5 - right now, they don't even want to apply side-spin on a lot of shots. Hopefully, they go back next year.

 

[skip100]

In the Wolford-Alenzi match Alenzi had an open long shot on the 6 with natural position to the 7 and he (presumably rationally) decided to play what should have been a complete non-safety to a full table bank for Wolford. These are the best players in the world, I want to watch them try to make shots.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

In the Wolford-Alenzi match Alenzi had an open long shot on the 6 with natural position to the 7 and he (presumably rationally) decided to play what should have been a complete non-safety to a full table bank for Wolford. These are the best players in the world, I want to watch them try to make shots.

Neither one of these players is one of the best players in the world. I watched Wolford play, and it was not particularly impressive. He's got a good(ish) stroke, but he made a lot of bad decisions.

 

[lfigueroa]

Well said....I'm 1000% in agreement.
...This 4" pocket I feel is a disturbing trend, maybe it would suit 10ball ...but NOT 9ball. 9 ball is supposed to be creative, explosive and fun to watch and play. The Conneticut winner break event was exactly that....FUN to watch. These 2023 US Open matches are no fun at all from a league players perspective. It's all laying up safety/strategic play and no taking on any kind of bank that's not dead on, or runout that's not too difficult, let alone carom, or breakout or god forbid... a combo! League players love seeing those combo/carom 9's ...it brings back the O'l... "Amus, are you a hustler" days. ; )
And the trickle down is that some rooms start adopting Diamond tables with 4- 1/4" pockets....that never get reclothed or even cleaned in many many 10's of YEARS of daily rough play....those table now play soooooo bad, only the smooth stroking Filipinos have any chance of avoiding soo many rattled balls. Whereas those old Gold and Black crowns still played beautifully even with the worst cloth imaginable.
Soo what happens is the dreams of league players ever competing in a major event....gets crushed completely.
My thinking is the top Pros don't mind bc it keep the prize money in their pockets and away from any upsets.
LOL ...that's my novel for the day. Enjoy.

They tightened up the pockets at the DCC last year and, given all the amateurs and semi-good players, it was a goat rope.

Lou Figueroa
tables were speedy and
banked short too

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

I believe you specifically mentioned the idea of viewership being driven by having an American to root for, did you not? And then you mentioned pocket size immediately afterwards in relation to this.

I did not mention anything about having an American to root for. I wrote about general people would find it god awful to watch (more or less). When I say that, I do not mean pool lover viewership (though I love pool and don't watch it).

An allure of pool is correct. And what I watch today certainly doesn't do much for it. So, I could only imagine what people who don't love pool would think if they had to watch it.

My post:

"Other players might appreciate it. But totally wrong if you want a prime time viewable sport. The majority like excitement, amazing shots, etc... That is lessened by pocket size. But, good if pool would like to remain in the small ppv arena. Regular viewers could care less. They would just wonder why the slow play and safeties all the time"

I don't see anything there about American players to root for. I believe the only American I even mentioned was Earl and that was in relation to him being a viewable personality.

I'll look this thread back up in 5 years and see how pool has progressed.

 

[westcoast]

I assume you are trying with DAZN. There may be apps that get around whatever DAZN is doing to prevent image/video copies. Until we find one, I guess you have to put your phone on a tripod and take a picture of your screen.

I think the trick is to deactivate "use hardware acceleration when available" under the systems tab for settings

 

[Bob Jewett]

You can use a clipping tool on PC, and do a full screen snapshot on any phone, any tablet. Most people don't know the button combination to press to do so on mobile devices. There is literally nothing a site/app can do to prevent this.

On Windows the keys that get you a snipping tool are Windows-shift-S. When I do that, the DAZN video goes black immediately. After I snip, it goes back to video. If I do a full-screen video record on Windows (Windows-Alt-R), it appears to be recording OK, but when I view the recorded video, it is black. This is on WIndows 11. It is the only time I've seen a problem with the recording functions.

 

[Maniac]

Neither one of these players is one of the best players in the world. I watched Wolford play, and it was not particularly impressive. He's got a good(ish) stroke, but he made a lot of bad decisions.

And yet, somehow, he has been in the conversation for Mosconi Cup choices.

I think after his U.S. Open performances, we probably won't be hearing his name as often. He is currently getting his ass handed to him by Alenzi.

Edited to add: Alenzi wins 8-4. Wolford going home.