SJM at the 2023 International Open

[Island Drive]

I think Ko's whitewash of Yapp in the US Open semifinals was the single greatest performance of 2023, and it rates among the finest single-match performances that I've ever seen. The fact that it came on four-inch pockets makes it all the more remarkable.

At least for this fan, Yapp's performance against Gorst at the International was the second-best effort of the year. Also in the conversation is Kaci's 11-0 whitewash of Ko Pin Yi in the UK Open semifinals in June, which he followed up with a dominating 11-4 win over Filler in the final.

Dr Dave and I chatted about how watching the best doesn't guarantee that you'll see THEIR best but that sometimes you get lucky and you are right there at that special moment when it happens.

We sure have seen some great pool this year!

Yep your fortunate if your able to catch a moment in time that's ''one of a kind''. I remember in 70's a term used. Catchin' a gear. Smooting out, rolling. Like the greatest pool moment in my life watching another, well there was two .
Shaw's play in the finals of the US Open against, Kaci. Shaw WOW.

But Earl Strickland doing what he did at CJ's in Dallas..... ''stands out''.
Much greater than watching Irving Crane run 150 and out.

 

[Justaneng]

in football the team that scores gives away the ball. there is good reason for that.
same in pool after winning the game you shouldnt keep the break.

sure it may give someone else a chance to get from behind. but that same thing makes it easier for someone to get too far ahead.
the break is strong and should be neutral.

actually matches would be closer and more exciting if you had loser breaks. although i dont propose that as its too radical.

Alternate break for races to 9 or less, then winner breaks for races of 10+ would kinda split the difference.

 

[skogstokig]

Yep your fortunate if your able to catch a moment in time that's ''one of a kind''. I remember in 70's a term used. Catchin' a gear. Smooting out, rolling. Like the greatest pool moment in my life watching another, well there was two .
Shaw's play in the finals of the US Open against, Kaci. Shaw WOW.

But Earl Strickland doing what he did at CJ's in Dallas..... ''stands out''.
Much greater than watching Irving Crane run 150 and out.

i would say the succeeding US open final, filler vs wu, was the best for me. until ko ping chung's performance this year. all three of those finals were won by fast players in dead stroke. very nice to watch

 

[Positively Ralf]

Maybe because your a nobody trying to tell a Hall of Famer how to act! Didn’t know typing on your computer during a match is not allowed lol. Oh wait it is but because you feel it’s disrespectful you actually confront him and then get butt hurt when he responds negatively. Wow maybe mind your business and this wouldn’t have happened.

Just wanted to say that this is a really stupid take on the situation. By this logic, if I'm at a tournament and a HoF player or future HoF player is making a ton of noise during the finals, I should keep my mouth quiet because I'm a nobody. But if I'm a somebody, I have the right to tell them to shut it and they will go along with it? Really stupid take.

How do others feel about alternate break? I'm thinking I don't like it as much as winner breaks.

With 9 ball, I'll take alternate break. But favoring that format means the other side of the entertainment spectrum is lost, which is the break and run packages. But let's be honest, a lot of pool fans complain about how boring 9 ball gets with winner breaks due to the inherent problem that 9 ball has.

It honestly is a column A, column B discussion with no real winner.

 

[sjm]

Yep your fortunate if your able to catch a moment in time that's ''one of a kind''. I remember in 70's a term used. Catchin' a gear. Smooting out, rolling. Like the greatest pool moment in my life watching another, well there was two .
Shaw's play in the finals of the US Open against, Kaci. Shaw WOW.

But Earl Strickland doing what he did at CJ's in Dallas..... ''stands out''.
Much greater than watching Irving Crane run 150 and out.

I've always felt that Earl's highest gear was the highest "highest gear" of any player in the 9ball era. The way he'd sometimes dismiss champion after champion 11-2 had to be seen to be believed. Needless to say, he wasn't always in that form and Sigel was the more likely of the two to win an event from the loser's bracket, but when Earl had it going full steam, wow!

 

[maha]

one thing with winner breaks is that it has and will favor the best breakers. so the best overall shooter and position player loses much of his skill set advantage to an expert breaker.

of course we can say just learn to break better. but should the break be such an important determination of the winners.

maybe having a more neutral breaking routine would be better. and some tournaments have tried that.
i personally would go for all balls spotted made on the break and breaking from directly into the head of the pack.
or perhaps just either one.

 

[decent dennis]

Why does anything have to change? Why don’t we just super glue the rack and whoever gets a ball loose first wins? Jeez

 

[Island Drive]

i would say the succeeding US open final, filler vs wu, was the best for me. until ko ping chung's performance this year. all three of those finals were won by fast players in dead stroke. very nice to watch

Thx....
Shaw......one shot that he rolled out too and Kaci gave back was basically this your six diamonds from the foot and the next ball to shoot is on the foot rail just off the cushion. Shaw rolled clear of a froze ball on the long rail, still 6 diamonds from the foot rail. There was No real shot there, well kinda. Shaw backcut the 2 ball into the other pocket, cb up down at an AN EXTREME HIGH speed, up/down and then went into a cluster of balls, opened the rack and ran out.

 

[sjm]

Alternate break for races to 9 or less, then winner breaks for races of 10+ would kinda split the difference.

I'm in a similar camp, but my cutoff is a race to five. Race to 5 or less, alternate break. I also believe that alternate break is best in any rack-your-own events, regardless of race length.

I also feel that alternate break is unnecessary when the pockets are super-tight. Matchroom events in 2023 have shown us that on four-inch pockets, the breaker's advantage is very small.

 

[nicksaint26]

Just wanted to say that this is a really stupid take on the situation. By this logic, if I'm at a tournament and a HoF player or future HoF player is making a ton of noise during the finals, I should keep my mouth quiet because I'm a nobody. But if I'm a somebody, I have the right to tell them to shut it and they will go along with it? Really stupid take.



With 9 ball, I'll take alternate break. But favoring that format means the other side of the entertainment spectrum is lost, which is the break and run packages. But let's be honest, a lot of pool fans complain about how boring 9 ball gets with winner breaks due to the inherent problem that 9 ball has.

It honestly is a column A, column B discussion with no real winner.

Nobody should be telling anyone to stop typing as its irrelevant to the match. I don’t care if your a Hall of Famer or a nobody like Fran. Typing away quietly is not like talking loud during a match but whatever you say Ralf.

 

[Island Drive]

I've always felt that Earl's highest gear was the highest "highest gear" of any player in the 9ball era. The way he'd sometimes dismiss champion after champion 11-2 had to be seen to be believed. Needless to say, he wasn't always in that form and Sigel was the more likely of the two to win an event from the loser's bracket, but when Earl had it going full steam, wow!

And tere's definitely ''one more'' Shaws 14.1 runnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn. Ouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut.

 

[sjm]

Another nuance we found at this year's International 9-ball was that the races were the same in both loser's side and winner's side play. In each case, the race was to ten. This continued in the Stage 2 single elimination as well, and only the final had a longer race, which was to thirteen.

I'm OK with doing it this way as long as the schedule is maintained, but I'm also comfortable with having shorter races in loser's bracket play.

 

[sjm]

By the way, is Kazakis snakebit in Virginia or what?

Alex was the unfortunate victim of a referee's mixup against Shaw in 2019 with a spot in the last four riding on it. Here's how I reported it then:

Both were brilliant up to 7-7. The Twilight Zone moment of the match occurred in rack 16 with Shaw ahead 8-7. Here’s what happened. Let’s preface this with some procedural guidelines, First, the referee is instructed to remove the rack template immediately after the break. Second, when the referee approaches the table to remove the template, the shot clock operator is instructed to stop the clock until the template has been removed.and the referee has walked away. So here’s what happened. With perhaps 20 left on the shot clock, Shaw approached the rack, attempting to remove the template that the referee had forgotten to attend to. Realizing he couldn’t remove the template without disturbing the balls, he opted to leave the template there. This was followed by three errors in procedure. First, the referee, unsolicited, came to the table to remove the template. Second, the shot clock operator failed to stop the clock. Third, the ten seconds to shoot warning was never issued because the referee was busy removing the template. Sure enough, the shot clock expired, and it was ruled, correctly in my view, that this would not be considered a shot clock expiration foul. Shaw, it was judged,had been denied his procedural rights and was allowed to play on, running that rack and one more for a 10-7 lead on his way to victory. The always classy Kazakhs was, understandably, upset. Even Shaw, a friend and Mosconi teammate of Kazakis, felt bad for Alex, but weird stuff happens from time to time, and on this occasion it happened in a big match in a big event.

In this year's International, with a spot in Stage 2 riding on it, Fortuniski miscued on the seven ball at double hill vs Kazakis, but he got away with it and won.

I'll go out on a limb and predict that Kazakis will never buy a winning lottery ticket in the state of Virginia --- it's just not his lucky state!

 

[Baby Huey]

Interesting how in One Pocket there's never any question about break apiece being the standard rule. And, actually when it's tracked, alternate breaking in One Pocket only gives the player breaking about a 5-10% advantage.

 

[sjm]

Interesting how in One Pocket there's never any question about break apiece being the standard rule. And, actually when it's tracked, alternate breaking in One Pocket only gives the player breaking about a 5-10% advantage.

Interesting. I always felt the breaker's edge was even bigger than that at one pocket.

 

[maha]

it is.
jerry is mistaken

he is right when two bad players play as then the edge is small.

 

[Flakeandrun]

I prefer winner breaks to alternate breaks. I can't imagine not getting to see some of those packages that Earl used to put together, for example. His top gear was the best I've ever seen, and I think it would be unfair to legislate out that kind of dominant ability.

I agree and disagree. Was watching some old Earl footage last night, and the guy is literally like a feral animal on those big pockets, blasting things in with the crazy eyes and sprinting the table.
But in the interest of a fair display of skill, or contest. Alternate break is hard to look past in my head.

 

[PoolBum]

I agree and disagree. Was watching some old Earl footage last night, and the guy is literally like a feral animal on those big pockets, blasting things in with the crazy eyes and sprinting the table.
But in the interest of a fair display of skill, or contest. Alternate break is hard to look past in my head.

I think winner breaks is only unfair if one player never gets a turn at the table. That's extremely rare, though. I think it's more unfair to take away a player like Earl's or Shane's ability to put packages together, an ability which few other players can match.

 

[Flakeandrun]

I think winner breaks is only unfair if one player never gets a turn at the table. That's extremely rare, though. I think it's more unfair to take away a player like Earl's or Shane's ability to put packages together, an ability which few other players can match.

Like I said, I see the merit in both sides of the coin. Not sure what the right answer is. It's entertainment VS sport... MR changing break format (not that the format wasn't changed before) and pocket-size, shows that the balance between sport and creating entertaining contexts for play hasn't been fully aligned yet. Love the head games, the energy and the pressure from an entertainment perspective. But the battle of pure technical skill is the priority of competing in sport? I don't know. I don't like sitting down and watching for a long time... although, sometimes we play our best with the back against the wall, or the 'Is what it is' attitude that comes from being on the receiving end of a kicking, which makes for dramatic comebacks. Contemplating this really has my head in a spin actually.
I think I lean toward alternate breaks, but fully appreciate the winner breaks format also.

 

[sjm]

Like I said, I see the merit in both sides of the coin. Not sure what the right answer is. It's entertainment VS sport... MR changing break format (not that the format wasn't changed before) and pocket-size, shows that the balance between sport and creating entertaining contexts for play hasn't been fully aligned yet. Love the head games, the energy and the pressure from an entertainment perspective. But the battle of pure technical skill is the priority of competing in sport? I don't know. I don't like sitting down and watching for a long time... although, sometimes we play our best with the back against the wall, or the 'Is what it is' attitude that comes from being on the receiving end of a kicking, which makes for dramatic comebacks. Contemplating this really has my head in a spin actually.
I think I lean toward alternate breaks, but fully appreciate the winner breaks format also.

I think you've framed the argument well, but I think you've done it from the vantage point of a competitor. To me, the subject of alternate break is one in which what the players want must come second to what makes pool a more entertaining sport for the viewer.

As a fan, I like winner breaks better, but I understand where those who prefer alternate break are coming from.

Many on this forum would agree that the most electrifying pool moment we've seen in pool in our lives was when Wu Jiaqing came to the table down 16-12 and ran out the match for a 17-16 win in the World Pool Championships final in 2005. That can't happen with alternate break. The fans like packages.