SJM at 2023 Mosconi Cup- Malice at the Palace

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Greetings. I spent four more days in London after the completion of the Mosconi Cup, so I just got home to New York. That explains the lateness of my trip report. I have not read any of the postings on AZB pertaining to the Mosconi Cup, so I may well be repeating what others have said, for which I apologize.

I attended all four sessions in London at Alexandra Palace and I won’t beat around the bush about what is best described as an embarrassing effort by Team USA and a rock-solid performance by the far superior squad from Europe that underscored the huge gap between American and European pool. I rooted hard for Team USA, but it was hard to watch them take such a thrashing.

It is usually around this time that we get the following excuses from some on the forum: 1) If a roll or two went differently, it would have been a different match, 2) American players are able to play with Europe but have weaker mental games, 3) Team USA only had to break a little better to win, 4) Europe had better teamwork than the US and that was the difference, and let’s not forget my favorite, 5) Team USA didn’t lag well enough to win. Others have surely suggested that Team Europe is on a hot streak now, but there are ebbs and flows in the event and Team USA will likely go on a similar streak one of these days. None of these excuses are valid.

So, what exactly did happen? Team Europe outplayed Team USA in almost every area of the game. They had better fundamentals, played better patterns, broke the balls better than Team USA, and played better defense than Team USA. The total rack score showed that, in rough terms, Europe beat the USA in a twenty-five ahead set, so this was a massacre of the highest order. Europe, in rough terms, won a twenty-five ahead race against Team USA in a single Mosconi Cup!!!

At Large estimated that each match took an average of 50 minutes, so there was about 700 minutes of play in total, or just under twelve hours. Imagine a gambling match played to twenty-five racks ahead. This one only took about twelve hours. Most would say that the loser of a twelve hour twenty-five ahead race had no business even being on the table with the winner. That’s how bad this was.

What went on at the individual player level? Despite his Match 14 meltdown, Shane Wolford exceeded expectations. We got Fedor’s “B” game when we needed his “A” game. The Mosconi was a nightmare for SVB, Woodward and Styer. At Large noted that Team USA broke and ran just 20% of its racks compared to 35% for Team Europe ---- two very different levels of play.

Team Europe was, indisputably, great but America needs to own how far it has fallen behind Europe in pro pool. I remember thinking in June that Team Europe would likely be Filler, Gorst, Kaci, FSR and Shaw or Ouschan. It’s hard to even imagine the beatdown that such a team would have offered to a Gorst-less Team USA. To their credit, Matchroom accurately assessed what was coming and tried to shake things up by proclaiming Gorst eligible for Team USA.

I’m a bit of a broken record on this subject and have said pretty much the same for nearly fifteen years on the forum: Team USA is just as far behind Team Europe in its decision making as in its stroke fundamentals. 9ball has evolved to the point that players lacking both superior conceptualization and superior execution skills are, for the most part, incapable of winning anything big, so the immediate future looks bleak. With tight pockets and difficult breaking rules in vogue, one must possess superior tactical skills to succeed, and few Americans show such skills.

Where does the solution lie? Yes, some of it lies in practicing harder, but the real solution lies in training. American training is falling short of the mark and needs a rewrite to ensure that the next generation of American pros will have more well-rounded games than this one.

Congratulations to the far superior Team Europe. Well played!
 
Last edited:

jokrswylde

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Greetings. I spent four more days in London after the completion of the Mosconi Cup, so I just got home to New York. That explains the lateness of my trip report. I have not read any of the postings on AZB pertaining to the Mosconi Cup, so I may well be repeating what others have said, for which I apologize.



I attended all four sessions in London at Alexandra Palace and I won’t beat around the bush about what is best described as an embarrassing effort by Team USA and a rock-solid performance by the far superior squad from Europe that underscored the huge gap between American and European pool. I rooted hard for Team USA, but it was hard to watch them take such a thrashing.

It is usually around this time that we get the following excuses from some on the forum: 1) If a roll or two went differently, it would have been a different match, 2) American players are able to play with Europe but have weaker mental games, 3) Team USA only had to break a little better to win, 4) Europe had better teamwork that the US and that was the difference, and let’s not forget my favorite, 5) Team USA didn’t lag well enough to win. Others have surely suggested that Team Europe is on a hot streak now, but there are ebbs and flows in the event and Team USA will likely go on a similar streak one of these days. None of these excuses are valid.

So, what exactly did happen? Team Europe outplayed Team USA in almost every area of the game. They had better fundamentals, played better patterns, broke the balls better than Team USA, and played better defense than Team USA. The total rack score showed that, in rough terms, Europe beat the USA in a twenty-five ahead set, so this was a massacre of the highest order. Europe, in rough terms, won a twenty-five ahead race against Team USA in a single Mosconi Cup.

At Large estimated that each match took an average of 50 minutes, so there was about 700 minutes of play in total, or just under twelve hours. Imagine a gambling match played to twenty-five racks ahead. This one only took about twelve hours. Most would say that the loser of a twelve hour twenty-ahead race had no business even being on the table with the winner. That’s how bad this was.

What went on at the individual player level? Despite his Match 14 meltdown, Shane Wolford exceeded expectations. We got Fedor’s “B” game when we needed his “A” game. The Mosconi was a nightmare for SVB, Woodward and Styer. At Large noted that Team USA broke and ran just 20% of its racks compared to 35% for Team Europe ---- two very different levels of play.

Team Europe was, indisputably, great but America needs to own how far it has fallen behind Europe in pro pool. I remember thinking in June that Team Europe would likely be Filler, Gorst, Kaci, FSR and Shaw or Ouschan. It’s hard to even imagine the beatdown that such a team would have offered to a Gorst-less Team USA. To their credit, Matchroom accurately assessed what was coming and tried to shake things up by proclaiming Gorst eligible for Team USA.

I’m a bit of a broken record on this subject and have said pretty much the same for fifteen years on the forum: Team USA is just as far behind Team Europe in its decision making as in its stroke fundamentals. 9ball has evolved to the point that players lacking both superior conceptualization and superior execution skills are, for the most part, incapable of winning anything big, so the immediate future looks bleak. With tight pockets and difficult breaking rules in vogue, one must possess superior tactical skills to succeed, and few Americans show such skills.

Where does the solution lie? Yes, some of it lies in practicing harder, but the real solution lies in training. American training is falling short of the mark and needs a rewrite to ensure that the next generation of American pros will have more well-rounded games than this one.

Congratulations to the far superior Team Europe. Well played!
Thanks man, glad you had safe travels and welcome back!

Embarrassing is a good adjective to use to describe this year's MC. I do still believe the format of the Cup itself (short races, alternative breaks) allows for the US to be competitive and win periodically, but they have to play close to their best and have Europe struggle a bit. If both teams bring their "A" games, I think Europe wins 70+% of the time. If, like this year, Europe plays their "A" game, and the US struggles, we do well to score 3 points.

Couple of questions:
What are your thoughts on JJ? This year he made some head scratching decisions with the lineup that didn't help, IMO. I am a big fan of JJ, his knowledge, attitude, commentary, etc. I am not sure he can get it turned around as MC captain. It seems our guys have regressed in some of the areas you mentioned, pattern play, safety play, and especially breaking. Fair or not, coaches/captains are always evaluated on the product they put out. Do you think MR will make a move at captain? Should they? If so, who would you guess would be on their short list?
 

justnum

Billiards Improvement Research Projects Associate
Silver Member
Top Male Pool players need to practice their stroke privately before going to competition.

Should they stroke as a group or individually? JJ might need to coach them, if they don't know the correct way to practice stroke.

SVB did not have a group practice stroke.
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Simple solution
USA gets 2 games on the wire !!😂
May not be enough…😢
 

jalapus logan

be all. and supports it to
Silver Member
Top Male Pool players need to practice their stroke privately before going to competition.

Should they stroke as a group or individually? JJ might need to coach them, if they don't know the correct way to practice stroke.

SVB did not have a group practice stroke.
These, are, I acknowledge, words in this thread. Mortals however, can not divine the meaning, though the implications seem salacious.

My I humbly suggest that the source of the issue at hand is that arena play does not suit the nature of the contest. The battle needs to be in a pub and played on worn out equipment and every participant and spectator must be forced to place a wager on the outcome of each game and the contest as a whole.

Thusly, with money stacked high upon the light, 'Murica can and shall prevail. Let it be written, let it be so.
 

VVP

Registered
Before the Mosconi Cup, I put the odds of the USA winning at about 40% and thought that with extraordinary effort and some luck they could have won. I still think so and I have no doubt that it's a better team than last year's even though the results do not show.

I think a major blunder by JJ was to lead off with SVB on day one in the team's match and have Gorst as the 4th player, which means that Gorst would only get a chance of playing twice if the score was 4,4, which it ended up being. However, as great as SVB is as an individual player he struggles in a Team format ... history has repeatedly shown this. Therefore, to get the momentum going I would have started with Gorst and tried to get the first point as soon as possible. I don't have a problem with the choice of line up for the rest of the event.

JJ has repeatedly tried to make the case that SVB is the GOAT, even over Efren. That makes me want to scratch my head. Well, his faith in SVB might have cost him another Mosconi and put him well on the way to becoming the most losing captain, if not already.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Before the Mosconi Cup, I put the odds of the USA winning at about 40% ...
On paper they were never better than 20% even with Gorst. On average USA was about 40% in each match. It was a race to 11 matches.

Here are the odds with the current FargoRate numbers, which have changed a little since the MC:

1702573499684.png


The US had about a 1 in 6 chance to win -- 16.8%

The bookies didn't have them that far under and that provided an opportunity to place a bet at favorable odds.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
What are your thoughts on JJ? This year he made some head scratching decisions with the lineup that didn't help, IMO. I am a big fan of JJ, his knowledge, attitude, commentary, etc. I am not sure he can get it turned around as MC captain. It seems our guys have regressed in some of the areas you mentioned, pattern play, safety play, and especially breaking.
While JJ must be held accountable for this poor effort, I don't think he's the problem. Had Eckert coached Team USA and JJ coached Team Europe, it still would have been 11-3. A general whose soldiers are poorly trained will not often fare well in battle.

Perhaps I expect too much of a coach., but when a Mosconi Cup coach holds the post year after year, they have the opportunity to get in the faces of the players and demand that they work on areas in which they have underperformed. There is no evidence that this is being done and players seem to have the same weaknesses year after year.

Fair or not, coaches/captains are always evaluated on the product they put out. Do you think MR will make a move at captain? Should they? If so, who would you guess would be on their short list?
My guess is that MR will stick with JJ, provided that he wants the post. Of those who have yet to coach a Team USA, I'd like to see Mike Sigel, Allen Hopkins or Kim Davenport as coach. I suspect, however, that MR would go younger, but at this point, I'll pass on anyone who hasn't represented Team USA multiple times.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Malice? Are you suggesting there were nefarious intentions, or do you not know the definition of the word?
Pounding an opponent over and over when they're already down is malice, and that's what we got here. The term "Malice at the Palace" comes frm a brawl in American pro basketball. The Palace is the home court of Detroit's team.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
On paper they were never better than 20% even with Gorst. On average USA was about 40% in each match. It was a race to 11 matches.

Here are the odds with the current FargoRate numbers, which have changed a little since the MC:

View attachment 732760

The US had about a 1 in 6 chance to win -- 16.8%

The bookies didn't have them that far under and that provided an opportunity to place a bet at favorable odds.
The eye test says it's less likely than that, maybe 14%.
 

DeeDeeCues

Well-known member
Pounding an opponent over and over when they're already down is malice, and that's what we got here. The term "Malice at the Palace" comes frm a brawl in American pro basketball. The Palace is the home court of Detroit's team.

Pounding an out opponent would be malice in boxing or MMA.

This is pool. The Americans were down, but they weren't out until the euros won their eleventh.

Trying to beat your opponent is never malice, it is sportsmanship. Malice would be easing up and running the betting line. Oops, there isn't a betting line because of the malice shown when the ruffleman bagged against a nobody.
 
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