SJM at 2023 Mosconi Cup- Malice at the Palace

WobblyStroke said:
Please. Please let this happen. Earl will give us pool's version of this coach....
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Earl's criticisms about current USA team are worth listening to again and discussing.

Do you remember what he said?
 
sjm said:
T

Thanks for your insights. I'll give this subject a little more thought. I didn't know that Ralph spent time training with Team Europe to get them prepared, but if you know he did, then I stand corrected. I don't believe coaching during the Mosconi itself makes much difference.
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Ralph spent several weeks with the team before MC. and you are perfectly right - coaching during MC doesnt make much difference,as a matter of fact you can make things much worse at the heat of the moment. But if you watched Ralph carefully during MC he seemed to do almost nothing,he was just...present and totally calm,he was rather an overseer if everything went according to his plan😎 and in one of those short interviews for tv he was even asked about this to which he replied something to this extent: "those guys know better than i do what to do at the table at any given moment,no need for my input. i did my work with the guys before MC,thats where the preparation counts". so that confirms perfectly your idea😉 on the other hand JJ was seemingly nervous and rather reactive than being proactive,he was everything but calm which really didnt help the US team at all. you can put JJ against Markus Chamat as a captain and the coaching skills will be about even but when you put a true hard-hitting heavyweight of a coach on Euro side you need to do the same on US side as well to make it interesting! Take Johan Ruijsink on board US team again and you will get EPIC war in Las Vegas!!!
 
sjm said:
T

Thanks for your insights. I'll give this subject a little more thought. I didn't know that Ralph spent time training with Team Europe to get them prepared, but if you know he did, then I stand corrected. I don't believe coaching during the Mosconi itself makes much difference.
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Agreed. What changes is a coach going to make that doesn't disrupt a player's entire game? Stroke is too fundamental without months or more of lead time. Decision making? Players play awful when they're second-guessing themselves.

These guys are pros. The time for changes is way behind them, or a long, long road ahead. There are no quick fixes that can be done in this format. You just have to get better players. Or hope you roll the 6 you need to win.
 
marek said:
Ralph spent several weeks with the team before MC. and you are perfectly right - coaching during MC doesnt make much difference,as a matter of fact you can make things much worse at the heat of the moment. But if you watched Ralph carefully during MC he seemed to do almost nothing,he was just...present and totally calm,he was rather an overseer if everything went according to his plan😎 and in one of those short interviews for tv he was even asked about this to which he replied something to this extent: "those guys know better than i do what to do at the table at any given moment,no need for my input. i did my work with the guys before MC,thats where the preparation counts". so that confirms perfectly your idea😉 on the other hand JJ was seemingly nervous and rather reactive than being proactive,he was everything but calm which really didnt help the US team at all. you can put JJ against Markus Chamat as a captain and the coaching skills will be about even but when you put a true hard-hitting heavyweight of a coach on Euro side you need to do the same on US side as well to make it interesting! Take Johan Ruijsink on board US team again and you will get EPIC war in Las Vegas!!!
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Thanks for that. FYI, you need not sell Ralph Eckert to me, for he and I have been good friends for over fifteen years. In fact, he and I drove back to New York together from the US Open 9-ball about two months ago. Fine man and a fine coach.
 
USA doesn't have a coach.

The best it has or nearest to it is DrDave and Bob.

Why have an instruction association if there are no coaching licenses? Franchise it from there just like any other mini sports league to help recruit and promote. Regular organized weekly events of all games and styles and groupings. Social media is at 5% utilization in the pool world. Mostly pros doing their ads.
 
shooter_Hans said:
It is true they are garbage and there is no mistake about it.
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American pool fans like that type of trashy garbage for entertainment.

Its like Russians and their political entertainment. It is always locked up.
 
sjm said:
Greetings. I spent four more days in London after the completion of the Mosconi Cup, so I just got home to New York. That explains the lateness of my trip report. I have not read any of the postings on AZB pertaining to the Mosconi Cup, so I may well be repeating what others have said, for which I apologize.

I attended all four sessions in London at Alexandra Palace and I won’t beat around the bush about what is best described as an embarrassing effort by Team USA and a rock-solid performance by the far superior squad from Europe that underscored the huge gap between American and European pool. I rooted hard for Team USA, but it was hard to watch them take such a thrashing.

It is usually around this time that we get the following excuses from some on the forum: 1) If a roll or two went differently, it would have been a different match, 2) American players are able to play with Europe but have weaker mental games, 3) Team USA only had to break a little better to win, 4) Europe had better teamwork that the US and that was the difference, and let’s not forget my favorite, 5) Team USA didn’t lag well enough to win. Others have surely suggested that Team Europe is on a hot streak now, but there are ebbs and flows in the event and Team USA will likely go on a similar streak one of these days. None of these excuses are valid.

So, what exactly did happen? Team Europe outplayed Team USA in almost every area of the game. They had better fundamentals, played better patterns, broke the balls better than Team USA, and played better defense than Team USA. The total rack score showed that, in rough terms, Europe beat the USA in a twenty-five ahead set, so this was a massacre of the highest order. Europe, in rough terms, won a twenty-five ahead race against Team USA in a single Mosconi Cup!!!

At Large estimated that each match took an average of 50 minutes, so there was about 700 minutes of play in total, or just under twelve hours. Imagine a gambling match played to twenty-five racks ahead. This one only took about twelve hours. Most would say that the loser of a twelve hour twenty-five ahead race had no business even being on the table with the winner. That’s how bad this was.

What went on at the individual player level? Despite his Match 14 meltdown, Shane Wolford exceeded expectations. We got Fedor’s “B” game when we needed his “A” game. The Mosconi was a nightmare for SVB, Woodward and Styer. At Large noted that Team USA broke and ran just 20% of its racks compared to 35% for Team Europe ---- two very different levels of play.

Team Europe was, indisputably, great but America needs to own how far it has fallen behind Europe in pro pool. I remember thinking in June that Team Europe would likely be Filler, Gorst, Kaci, FSR and Shaw or Ouschan. It’s hard to even imagine the beatdown that such a team would have offered to a Gorst-less Team USA. To their credit, Matchroom accurately assessed what was coming and tried to shake things up by proclaiming Gorst eligible for Team USA.

I’m a bit of a broken record on this subject and have said pretty much the same for nearly fifteen years on the forum: Team USA is just as far behind Team Europe in its decision making as in its stroke fundamentals. 9ball has evolved to the point that players lacking both superior conceptualization and superior execution skills are, for the most part, incapable of winning anything big, so the immediate future looks bleak. With tight pockets and difficult breaking rules in vogue, one must possess superior tactical skills to succeed, and few Americans show such skills.

Where does the solution lie? Yes, some of it lies in practicing harder, but the real solution lies in training. American training is falling short of the mark and needs a rewrite to ensure that the next generation of American pros will have more well-rounded games than this one.

Congratulations to the far superior Team Europe. Well played!
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Welcome back Stu. Your report only underlines what all of us saw and discussed during all four days of the MC, and continued to discuss for days afterwards.

It was a thrashing of the highest order, that spared no one. Even our two big guns were treated to multiple beatdowns. A miserable look for Team usa, a bunch of JV's versus a team of Pros.

Barry Hearn said it best on Day Four. The American players need to take this seriously and get out there and compete internationally against these superior players, or only fall further behind.

Will that happen, it's doubtful. The u.s. team will continue to show up every year and collect their second place paycheck. Hey, it's free money!
 
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The USA team needs a reason to ''want'' to win.
I'd prefer the winner to get all the cash and the losers only get room/board and airfare.
American pool players match up allot better when they are broke.
Not many American players/gamblers have a Thorsten Hohmann/SVB type of character or discipline.

bm
 
A rivalry commonly has a friendly wager or bet like NY pizza for lunch versus Chinese or Korean or Japanese or Filipino or Vietnamese or Malay or ...


Each player should have something to represent in the trade. SVB trades fish sticks for noodling.

Who is multidimensional?
 
WobblyStroke said:
where can i find this?
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Auto caption: Earl was ready that year
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I want to say Thank You to SJM for another great thread. His thoughts and observations are always well stated and honest.

While it may have been an epic loss by the American team hopefully we can learn from this and improve in the future.
 
Bob Jewett said:
On paper they were never better than 20% even with Gorst. On average USA was about 40% in each match. It was a race to 11 matches.

Here are the odds with the current FargoRate numbers, which have changed a little since the MC:

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The US had about a 1 in 6 chance to win -- 16.8%

The bookies didn't have them that far under and that provided an opportunity to place a bet at favorable odds.
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Fargorate seems to be a powerful predictor.
 
Nice write up Stu.

IMO, and we all have one...

For USA to be competitive again, in both the Mosconi Cup and international pool competitions, we need a central training academy. Between tour stops, all the top USA pros would eat and sleep there, for a month straight. Do drills. Work on weak areas. Work on strategy. Review tape of their matches, and set up situations they played poorly as a lesson plan. They would each build up their peer's game. The Mosconi coach could be the head coach.

Not only would the top pro's be here, but kids too. The pros could work with the kids. The coaches could work with the pros. Etc.

This would strengthen the current USA pro level, and strengthen the junior level for tomorrow's top USA pros.

I don't see us ever being the top again with the lone wolf strategy. Our players need to work together to help each other.
 
iusedtoberich said:
Nice write up Stu.

IMO, and we all have one...

For USA to be competitive again, in both the Mosconi Cup and international pool competitions, we need a central training academy. Between tour stops, all the top USA pros would eat and sleep there, for a month straight. Do drills. Work on weak areas. Work on strategy. Review tape of their matches, and set up situations they played poorly as a lesson plan. They would each build up their peer's game. The Mosconi coach could be the head coach.

Not only would the top pro's be here, but kids too. The pros could work with the kids. The coaches could work with the pros. Etc.

This would strengthen the current USA pro level, and strengthen the junior level for tomorrow's top USA pros.

I don't see us ever being the top again with the lone wolf strategy. Our players need to work together to help each other.
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this is an important point. the polish players are sparring together. also the spaniards live close to one another. two of them moved to the mainland to reap the benefits of practice. the same has been true in snooker for decades, they cluster up and practice together, many of them without coaches. the scottish boys are all business, treat it like any other day job.

maybe the US is worse off geographically in that regard, but you always have to sacrifice something. if prize money increases in pool it may very well be worth it, even if current fargo rates predicts this or that.
 
bpeacock said:
Fargorate seems to be a powerful predictor.
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So is watching them play a woman.

A boy competing against a trained female same age or in same age group is best determinant for future performance.

If they can't make it through the match, ... then other factors are at play. Men quit faster against women, its called rejection.
 
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