APA, FARGO and the death of 8 ball.....

[justadub]

In theory you are correct.

In shenanigan theory there are things we don't even know.

Sigh, of course that is possible. I can tell you for a fact that the Eagles Club that I was a member of did NOT pay the APA anything. The owner of the biggest regular pool room here would laugh in your face if you suggested he pay the APA to be in his room. So while it is "possible" that happens some places, I can tell you it ain't happening here.

 

[hang-the-9]

So you didn't actually see the guy play but you're sure he's cheating. And that team in Tennessee - did you report what they said to the LO there? If nobody did and if nobody ever keeps score properly, what is it, exactly, that you expect the LO to do? Do you even know if what they said was true?

Do you have an explanation how a 630 Fargo would be a 5 in the APA outside of cheating to keep the handicap down?

I was not in a league in TN, just hanging out and playing with the players after their league was done. It's just an area I was at for work for a bit, and went to the league since someone I knew from the area was playing. I have no idea who the LO was. Yes what he said was true because I saw how they played, and it was 2 levels under their APA handicap for sure. As I said, I would max out the APA rating and you can see how they played position and speed.

Fargo has way less cheating the system than APA, it's harder to do and usually a waste of money to dump games since you need to actually lose to keep the Fargo rating lower. APA you just need to game the innings and points, Fargo only cares about winning the game. TAP has the same flaw, they count innings in the handicaps, which is the simplest way to cheat. In theory it's a good idea, you miss more, you are worse, but in practice you need honesty and that goes out the window soon as one team decides to play games with the ratings, because then even more honest players are forced to play the same game to keep up.

You can give legitimate reasons why the handicaps are wrong, but when I travel the country for years, and play pool for over 30 and hear the same thing over and over in every pool hall and bar that has APA, nothing anyone can say will sway my opinions based on experience with seeing and playing with the people that were actively keeping their handicap low. Sure, scorekeeping can be bad, but that does not explain the players discussing who is going to try to lose and players telling me how they keep their handicap low. In one room, I overheard TWO teams in the same night chatting about who to put up so their higher players can dump the match to keep from going up. "So we play him, then her, then him, and if we do well you can just lose." "We don't need any more points so lose". It's just sad.

 

[trob]

In theory you are correct.

In shenanigan theory there are things we don't even know.

There are no bars here in york pa paying any leagues Or vice versa. We don’t even get charged greens Fees here. It’s an even trade Off. Week days are slow nights so you get a couple pool teams in their eating and drinking to off set the open tables. I will say people don’t drink near as much as they used to 30 years a go when I started leagues but hell back then both teams would buy you a drink and if you had an away game you would get a free drink if you went back to your home bar afterwards. Things were a lot different then lol

 

[hang-the-9]

Easy or not that is subjective. As a whole, the league can pretty much run itself because adults can still act like adults. They can still meet and play, keep track of score and leave the scoresheet in drop box or at the bar.

The lucrative part about being an LO is how much a bar is going to pay me to hold matches there. The commission a league operator gets from drinks bought by their players must be accounted for. Bars and pool halls pay LO's to hold matches there. This is what you guys don't see. How I know? They told me so. We sat their talking shop and I mentioned all of what I explained and they tell me they already do this. (*I MAY OR MAY NOT BE TELLING THE TRUTH; IT MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE HAPPENED)

The APA teams and players are an asset to an operator but many don't know this nor does it want to be made out in public.

If an LO isn't already doing this then I can understand the struggles financially.

I've never heard of any place paying anyone to hold a tournament at their place in my area (New England). At most the leagues get free table time and space during leagues in return for bringing in some more customers. In fact, one of the places I go to regularly thinks it's silly to offer someone to run their business for free in another business and wants to charge the league to play there.

 

[fuggles]

I've never heard of any place paying anyone to hold a tournament at their place in my area (New England). At most the leagues get free table time and space during leagues in return for bringing in some more customers. In fact, one of the places I go to regularly thinks it's silly to offer someone to run their business for free in another business and wants to charge the league to play there.

No bars or pool halls add money?

 

[APA Operator]

APA you just need to game the innings and points, Fargo only cares about winning the game.

I think you need to reevaluate this statement. In APA you have to game the scoresheet and get your opponent to do so as well, either through well-disguised defense that isn't marked or by plain old negotiation. I've seen both. Any APA LO caught falsifying scoresheets loses his franchise.

Fargo doesn't care about winning the match. Any match longer than one game can thus be gamed by the player, the LO, or the TD. I don't know many Fargo tournaments that are not races to more than one, do you? Practically every tournament match in Fargo can be gamed, without changing a single tournament result. The difference is you don't hear people discussing it because team play using Fargo isn't real popular and hasn't been around that long, so who would they discuss it with? The people they're trying to cheat?

Do you have an explanation how a 630 Fargo would be a 5 in the APA outside of cheating to keep the handicap down?

Certainly. Maybe he doesn't cheat in either, but his Fargo record consists of races to one against mostly APA 3's. He doesn't take chances so he's winning at least four times the number of games as anyone rated lower than him, and even or slightly better/worse against all others. All the others are also winning at the same clip, so there's a small group at 600+ and he just is one of them. Nobody in the league plays in any other Fargo events. In APA he wins games at the same clip against those rated lower than him, but because some of them actually win the match once in a while, he's just a little over 50% there.

Or, consider this - maybe he has some medical condition that makes his performance decline the longer he plays, making him really good at races to one in a Fargo league where he plays one and sits four but not so good in his APA league where he has to play four games most of the time before he gets a break. Once again, no cheating at all.

I know you only asked for one, but here's two. And in both, I would trust the APA number and call the Fargo number an outlier. And since he was probably watched at least once in Vegas (and didn't even play in the finals), it makes the APA number even more believable in my eyes.

Of course, he could be cheating and he's so good at it he got past all the anti-sandbagging measures in APA. But not everything that looks like a fish or smells like a fish is a fish.

 

[Dunnn51]

Totally agree, and if you have not been there recently the APA's Championship Arena has come a long way...Table surrounded by elevated stands on 3 sides and an elevated commentators booth on the other. Bright lights, table conditions slightly different from what you played on all week leading up the final (and not allowed to hit balls on table at all before the match), and about 4-5 tv cameras.

It has almost a "Mosconi Cup" type of feel to it for an Amateur player. I can tell you from firsthand experience that I don't care how many regional tours you've won or placed in, playing in that arena is just different and if you've never done it before, you will definitely feel the nerves big time.

I see what you & Trob are saying, but you know what??? All that didn't seem to phase the SL2 all that much. If you say well it's about his being a "9", aka: his Rep, well then it was all in his head.

 

[Justaneng]

I think you need to reevaluate this statement. In APA you have to game the scoresheet and get your opponent to do so as well, either through well-disguised defense that isn't marked or by plain old negotiation. I've seen both. Any APA LO caught falsifying scoresheets loses his franchise.

Fargo doesn't care about winning the match. Any match longer than one game can thus be gamed by the player, the LO, or the TD. I don't know many Fargo tournaments that are not races to more than one, do you? Practically every tournament match in Fargo can be gamed, without changing a single tournament result. The difference is you don't hear people discussing it because team play using Fargo isn't real popular and hasn't been around that long, so who would they discuss it with? The people they're trying to cheat?


Certainly. Maybe he doesn't cheat in either, but his Fargo record consists of races to one against mostly APA 3's. He doesn't take chances so he's winning at least four times the number of games as anyone rated lower than him, and even or slightly better/worse against all others. All the others are also winning at the same clip, so there's a small group at 600+ and he just is one of them. Nobody in the league plays in any other Fargo events. In APA he wins games at the same clip against those rated lower than him, but because some of them actually win the match once in a while, he's just a little over 50% there.

Or, consider this - maybe he has some medical condition that makes his performance decline the longer he plays, making him really good at races to one in a Fargo league where he plays one and sits four but not so good in his APA league where he has to play four games most of the time before he gets a break. Once again, no cheating at all.

I know you only asked for one, but here's two. And in both, I would trust the APA number and call the Fargo number an outlier. And since he was probably watched at least once in Vegas (and didn't even play in the finals), it makes the APA number even more believable in my eyes.

For USAPL every rack is entered into Fargo. Match wins/losses are based on ball count (not entirely unlike APA 9-ball). Except the money ball is worth 14 points and the others are worth 1, so it’s really hard to get a match win without winning racks along the way unless you are a severe (Fargo 200+ delta) underdog.

So, 5 weeks into my USAPL career I have 48 racks in the system, and as an APA 6/5 I’m settling about as a 450 (which was my starter rating). I suspect it’ll drift to maybe 475 or so which is a baseline SL-6 once some last “new league” nerves work themselves out. As a 5 I was holding about a 75% win rate, so I’m thinking my overall skill set is in line with a higher end SL-5?

All said, there is no possible way I could quirk my way into a Fargo 630. On my good days I can hold serve with a Fargo 530, but I start to struggle mightily in the 560-600 range even when it’s just for fun and I’m really, really on my game.

 

[APA Operator]

For USAPL every rack is entered into Fargo. Match wins/losses are based on ball count (not entirely unlike APA 9-ball). Except the money ball is worth 14 points and the others are worth 1, so it’s really hard to get a match win without winning racks along the way unless you are a severe (Fargo 200+ delta) underdog.

So, 5 weeks into my USAPL career I have 48 racks in the system, and as an APA 6/5 I’m settling about as a 450 (which was my starter rating). I suspect it’ll drift to maybe 475 or so which is a baseline SL-6 once some last “new league” nerves work themselves out. As a 5 I was holding about a 75% win rate, so I’m thinking my overall skill set is in line with a higher end SL-5?

All said, there is no possible way I could quirk my way into a Fargo 630. On my good days I can hold serve with a Fargo 530, but I start to struggle mightily in the 560-600 range even when it’s just for fun and I’m really, really on my game.

Yeah, multi-rack 9-Ball matches it's harder to do because you're gonna lose some racks along the way, but single-rack 8-Ball matches that's less likely.

 

[sparkle84]

I think you need to reevaluate this statement. In APA you have to game the scoresheet and get your opponent to do so as well, either through well-disguised defense that isn't marked or by plain old negotiation. I've seen both. Any APA LO caught falsifying scoresheets loses his franchise.

Fargo doesn't care about winning the match. Any match longer than one game can thus be gamed by the player, the LO, or the TD. I don't know many Fargo tournaments that are not races to more than one, do you? Practically every tournament match in Fargo can be gamed, without changing a single tournament result. The difference is you don't hear people discussing it because team play using Fargo isn't real popular and hasn't been around that long, so who would they discuss it with? The people they're trying to cheat?


Certainly. Maybe he doesn't cheat in either, but his Fargo record consists of races to one against mostly APA 3's. He doesn't take chances so he's winning at least four times the number of games as anyone rated lower than him, and even or slightly better/worse against all others. All the others are also winning at the same clip, so there's a small group at 600+ and he just is one of them. Nobody in the league plays in any other Fargo events. In APA he wins games at the same clip against those rated lower than him, but because some of them actually win the match once in a while, he's just a little over 50% there.

Or, consider this - maybe he has some medical condition that makes his performance decline the longer he plays, making him really good at races to one in a Fargo league where he plays one and sits four but not so good in his APA league where he has to play four games most of the time before he gets a break. Once again, no cheating at all.

I know you only asked for one, but here's two. And in both, I would trust the APA number and call the Fargo number an outlier. And since he was probably watched at least once in Vegas (and didn't even play in the finals), it makes the APA number even more believable in my eyes.

Of course, he could be cheating and he's so good at it he got past all the anti-sandbagging measures in APA. But not everything that looks like a fish or smells like a fish is a fish.

Talk about grasping at straws.

Anti sandbagging measures in APA???

Not a fish? Gimme a fucking break.

 

[APA Operator]

Talk about grasping at straws.

Cheaters cheat. Some cheaters also run leagues and tournaments. Period. Grasp that.

 

[boogieman]

I think you need to reevaluate this statement. In APA you have to game the scoresheet and get your opponent to do so as well, either through well-disguised defense that isn't marked or by plain old negotiation. I've seen both. Any APA LO caught falsifying scoresheets loses his franchise.

Fargo doesn't care about winning the match. Any match longer than one game can thus be gamed by the player, the LO, or the TD. I don't know many Fargo tournaments that are not races to more than one, do you? Practically every tournament match in Fargo can be gamed, without changing a single tournament result. The difference is you don't hear people discussing it because team play using Fargo isn't real popular and hasn't been around that long, so who would they discuss it with? The people they're trying to cheat?


Certainly. Maybe he doesn't cheat in either, but his Fargo record consists of races to one against mostly APA 3's. He doesn't take chances so he's winning at least four times the number of games as anyone rated lower than him, and even or slightly better/worse against all others. All the others are also winning at the same clip, so there's a small group at 600+ and he just is one of them. Nobody in the league plays in any other Fargo events. In APA he wins games at the same clip against those rated lower than him, but because some of them actually win the match once in a while, he's just a little over 50% there.

Or, consider this - maybe he has some medical condition that makes his performance decline the longer he plays, making him really good at races to one in a Fargo league where he plays one and sits four but not so good in his APA league where he has to play four games most of the time before he gets a break. Once again, no cheating at all.

I know you only asked for one, but here's two. And in both, I would trust the APA number and call the Fargo number an outlier. And since he was probably watched at least once in Vegas (and didn't even play in the finals), it makes the APA number even more believable in my eyes.

Of course, he could be cheating and he's so good at it he got past all the anti-sandbagging measures in APA. But not everything that looks like a fish or smells like a fish is a fish.

Hey can you PM me with the details or where to find the details to start an APA league. I want to grow pool in my local area and they just opened a pool hall with 12 tables.

 

[smiling_Hans]

When APA is the topic expect to hear this:

-SL whatever; always something about 2 or 3

-looking for low level players

-someone is too high

-SANDBAGGING at term synonymous with APA

-the guy that doesn’t play because he gets more joy being captain of a team. They are like me where I don’t enjoy pool as I use to so they become captains to stay involved with pool. You know the guy that carries his cue case but never opens it.

-sneaking in food and sneaking in alcohol.

-use empty tables as a place to lay their cues or cases or even used as a dinner table.

I know I’m missing a lot here.

 

[trob]

Sigh, of course that is possible. I can tell you for a fact that the Eagles Club that I was a member of did NOT pay the APA anything. The owner of the biggest regular pool room here would laugh in your face if you suggested he pay the APA to be in his room. So while it is "possible" that happens some places, I can tell you it ain't happening here.

No bars or pool halls add money?

all I can say is I’ve never heard of it happening.

 

[trob]

Cheaters cheat. Some cheaters also run leagues and tournaments. Period. Grasp that.

Fact. Playing in A league is just like any business you could work for. It’s only as good as the people running it.

 

[smiling_Hans]

Pool is an industry full of people with the scum bag or bozo gene. All of us have it including myself. Some can hide it but it comes out more often in a pool room than at work or home.

No surprise a league promotes cheating or designed around cheating. The seasoned players know this and the new players don’t. Hence the recruitment of low level beginning players.

They join throw down $100 for a cue. Another $100 for case. Perhaps $30 glove and the $50 cube of chalk and now they are committed and stuck. Hook line sinker.

Never see them practice to get better but see them sandbag it to make up for the lack of practice. Only way for them to stay competitive.

Crazy.

 

[smiling_Hans]

I think you need to reevaluate this statement. In APA you have to game the scoresheet and get your opponent to do so as well, either through well-disguised defense that isn't marked or by plain old negotiation. I've seen both. Any APA LO caught falsifying scoresheets loses his franchise.

Fargo doesn't care about winning the match. Any match longer than one game can thus be gamed by the player, the LO, or the TD. I don't know many Fargo tournaments that are not races to more than one, do you? Practically every tournament match in Fargo can be gamed, without changing a single tournament result. The difference is you don't hear people discussing it because team play using Fargo isn't real popular and hasn't been around that long, so who would they discuss it with? The people they're trying to cheat?


Certainly. Maybe he doesn't cheat in either, but his Fargo record consists of races to one against mostly APA 3's. He doesn't take chances so he's winning at least four times the number of games as anyone rated lower than him, and even or slightly better/worse against all others. All the others are also winning at the same clip, so there's a small group at 600+ and he just is one of them. Nobody in the league plays in any other Fargo events. In APA he wins games at the same clip against those rated lower than him, but because some of them actually win the match once in a while, he's just a little over 50% there.

Or, consider this - maybe he has some medical condition that makes his performance decline the longer he plays, making him really good at races to one in a Fargo league where he plays one and sits four but not so good in his APA league where he has to play four games most of the time before he gets a break. Once again, no cheating at all.

I know you only asked for one, but here's two. And in both, I would trust the APA number and call the Fargo number an outlier. And since he was probably watched at least once in Vegas (and didn't even play in the finals), it makes the APA number even more believable in my eyes.

Of course, he could be cheating and he's so good at it he got past all the anti-sandbagging measures in APA. But not everything that looks like a fish or smells like a fish is a fish.

That’s a lot of variables.

Guy plays great. Guys plays bad. Guy has medical condition. LOL

 

[smiling_Hans]

Do you have an explanation how a 630 Fargo would be a 5 in the APA outside of cheating to keep the handicap down?

I was not in a league in TN, just hanging out and playing with the players after their league was done. It's just an area I was at for work for a bit, and went to the league since someone I knew from the area was playing. I have no idea who the LO was. Yes what he said was true because I saw how they played, and it was 2 levels under their APA handicap for sure. As I said, I would max out the APA rating and you can see how they played position and speed.

Fargo has way less cheating the system than APA, it's harder to do and usually a waste of money to dump games since you need to actually lose to keep the Fargo rating lower. APA you just need to game the innings and points, Fargo only cares about winning the game. TAP has the same flaw, they count innings in the handicaps, which is the simplest way to cheat. In theory it's a good idea, you miss more, you are worse, but in practice you need honesty and that goes out the window soon as one team decides to play games with the ratings, because then even more honest players are forced to play the same game to keep up.

You can give legitimate reasons why the handicaps are wrong, but when I travel the country for years, and play pool for over 30 and hear the same thing over and over in every pool hall and bar that has APA, nothing anyone can say will sway my opinions based on experience with seeing and playing with the people that were actively keeping their handicap low. Sure, scorekeeping can be bad, but that does not explain the players discussing who is going to try to lose and players telling me how they keep their handicap low. In one room, I overheard TWO teams in the same night chatting about who to put up so their higher players can dump the match to keep from going up. "So we play him, then her, then him, and if we do well you can just lose." "We don't need any more points so lose". It's just sad.

Like I said I also hear these type of conversations. I made mention that some captains hardly play. They say they just manage teams. They love the real life Monopoly they are playing.

It’s part of APA culture. Is it cheating when everyone is doing it? It’s actually part of the game and captains consider it gamesmanship.

 

[justadub]

Pool is an industry full of people with the scum bag or bozo gene. All of us have it including myself. Some can hide it but it comes out more often in a pool room than at work or home.

No surprise a league promotes cheating or designed around cheating. The seasoned players know this and the new players don’t. Hence the recruitment of low level beginning players.

They join throw down $100 for a cue. Another $100 for case. Perhaps $30 glove and the $50 cube of chalk and now they are committed and stuck. Hook line sinker.

Never see them practice to get better but see them sandbag it to make up for the lack of practice. Only way for them to stay competitive.

Crazy.

Wow, you sure have a lot to say about APA. Despite many here from different parts of the country refuting the absoluteness of your complaints, you keep on blasting the league. We get it. You don't like it. Lots of us do.

And as I've said before, it's not like that everywhere. I have 15 years of experience with our league here, so I've seen a lot, for how it works, here. And it's not the disaster you proclaim. We have a few players with over 600 fargos in our league, and several in the 500's, so I expect those guys practice I know that many play in other leagues, as well as non APA tournaments. Our pool room has (12) 9' Diamonds and its busy all week.

Our LO has divisions all over Maine, in at least 12 communities, with a couple more being added next year. So I know they all run similarly.

Will there be "some" sandbagging, sure. Any league system will have that. It's human nature for some people to try and cheat, in anything.
Do you play for money? Do you disclose your real speed when matching up? Isn't that just sandbagging?

I've found that it's no where near as prevalent as many, including you, would suggest. Here, in my part of the world. You talk about players not practicing, if they are that bad, how do you think they are gonna be good enough to hide their speed? Only way to have that happen is to have someone good enough to be convincing. And then to have the attitude to do it. And to decide to take the extra effort to do it. And not get caught. I call BS.

Go play something you like, and leave the stuff you don't like alone, where the people who do like it can enjoy it. Stop letting that success bother you so much.

 

[smiling_Hans]

Wow, you sure have a lot to say about APA. Despite many here from different parts of the country refuting the absoluteness of your complaints, you keep on blasting the league. We get it. You don't like it. Lots of us do.

And as I've said before, it's not like that everywhere. I have 15 years of experience with our league here, so I've seen a lot, for how it works, here. And it's not the disaster you proclaim. We have a few players with over 600 fargos in our league, and several in the 500's, so I expect those guys practice I know that many play in other leagues, as well as non APA tournaments. Our pool room has (12) 9' Diamonds and its busy all week.

Our LO has divisions all over Maine, in at least 12 communities, with a couple more being added next year. So I know they all run similarly.

Will there be "some" sandbagging, sure. Any league system will have that. It's human nature for some people to try and cheat, in anything.
Do you play for money? Do you disclose your real speed when matching up? Isn't that just sandbagging?

I've found that it's no where near as prevalent as many, including you, would suggest. Here, in my part of the world. You talk about players not practicing, if they are that bad, how do you think they are gonna be good enough to hide their speed? Only way to have that happen is to have someone good enough to be convincing. And then to have the attitude to do it. And to decide to take the extra effort to do it. And not get caught. I call BS.

Go play something you like, and leave the stuff you don't like alone, where the people who do like it can enjoy it. Stop letting that success bother you so much.

Well initially I thought it was just my local league players that dealt with shenanigans. You start to see the same people witnessing the same of what I heard or seen first hand. So there has to be some truth to it.

You’ve probably played years in the league and are use to this behavior.

I mentioned in my other response about players enjoying the role of managing teams. There has to be some joy of doing it and that joy is to see who can cheat the best. They won’t ever snitch on one another because that is part of the game. It’s gamesmanship with them.

It’s great that you enjoy it but how its setup is very flawed.

You honestly think a level 2 or 3 player, who shows talent and ability, will be nurtured to become a 9? I think that player is the perfect pawn for cheating. They have ability but also raw enough to cheat with. They show the ability to win but inexperienced enough to lose. Perfect for this league’s flawed system.

I’m open for conversation about this league and added my opinion with the people that think this system is flawed. My comments and opinions are not directed at you. My comments and opinions is to confirm the opinions of those that think like me. I’m not bashing you.