Ah.... Me thinks this may be more of a discussion of stance related to stroke. Then stroke itself.
Elbow drop or pendulum stroke
- Thread starter trob
- Start date
I never said anything about your elbow going up for either stroke - It is your hand and the cue butt that rises on the pendulum follow through. If your hand is running in to your torso on the follow through, the butt of your cue must be rising on your follow through. Sounds like you have a mix of pendulum and piston in your stroke - not at all bad or uncommon.
I personally think a pinned elbow is the worst advice possible. I think someone one day said to themselves “this makes sense since it’s less moving parts”. Then it got ahold of the instructors and the rest is history.
It’s not natural. The body doesn’t want to do that for any shot that needs some speed.
It’s like asking a baseball player to hit a ball with only their arms and not their hips as well.
It’s not natural. The body doesn’t want to do that for any shot that needs some speed.
It’s like asking a baseball player to hit a ball with only their arms and not their hips as well.
Torso? As in chest? I hit mine (chest/breast) from time to time on follow through as well and wondered if it was a good thing or not. I typically make the shot, so I have not really looked into it like maybe I should've.
The whole elbow drop thing is funny. Mine moves when it needs to and holds still when it can... I think... hell I donno
Mirror video review may be in order for me as well.
madmartigan
Active member
I’ve struggled with this too, and I’ve experimented with both. Ultimately I keep coming back to the piston stroke because it feels more natural. I get in trouble with it if I drop the elbow too early sending the tip a bit high. I’ve had some success remedying this recently by simply focusing on keeping the cue as level as possible through the stroke and through the follow through. All that said, a pendulum can work for some - watch Judd Trump play, no elbow drop. But Ronnie on the other hand, tons of elbow drop and a “massive follow through” as Barry Stark describes it.
The unedited post I quoted contained only: "In a stationary pendulum stroke, on the follow through your elbow bends up". So I read "elbow", "bends" and "up". Since we were discussing elbow drop (inverse of up) and in practice a person's elbows 'bends' up twice. Hopefully you can see why I was mislead with what you wrote.
To add clarity. My cue is always in contact with my chest, along with my chin. So although I have zero doubt the force into my chest increases to some degree, my cue tip finishes on plane with the rest of the stroke and my hand punches into my torso. If the butt of the cue was rising to any notable degree. This would manifest in my tip dropping. That is not the case.
I'm assuming the lack in vertical butt/tip movement is due to wrist and grip action.
Possibly... I've only ever heard my mechanics or stroke quantified as "snooker like".
That's the crux of it... You cannot generate generous follow thru and not have elbow drop. Lets consider it a law of nature.
My elbow does drop during excessive follow through. Without a doubt. But only during follow through. Never before striking the ball. This is merely a matter correct grip hand placement.
Nope... I'm way more Trump then Ronnie. However just like Trump, my elbow drops when we swing for the fences or exaggerate follow through.
An excellent teacher and player responded to my question regarding the "elbow drop". He says that it's simply the result of the stroke. I personally couldn't agree more. Focusing on the full arm swing (including the shoulder) is all that's needed to generate the desired power. It comes with "ease". It's all in the timing. Learned through repetition, it will create the non-thinking wanted stroke.
It may not be completely applicable, but something you may want to consider on long pots shooting of the rail. Not sure of the CB placement of the above.
I also have an exaggerated pause in my stroke (driven by pros) and for +90% of my game it works perfectly fine. However my proficiency with long difficult pots off the rail (CB >0.5") wasn't acceptable so I started tinkering. So as always, I looked at the pro snooker world and noted several break downs of Ronnie's cue action. Most notably his piston like motion, with zero pause. I've worked this into this my game by completely removing the pause and purposely generating a tiny piston like motion with my grip hand. It's easily doubled my success rate. Possibly just a placebo, but the results are there none the less. Again though.... This is only for long difficult pots off the rail.
When I read "full arm swing" I started to imagine how horrible that stroke would be. However for actual elbow drop (as in a lowering) to occur. You must be pivoting your upper arm at the shoulder. Which would equate to "full arm swing".
All that said, I'm sure nearly no one places any focus on a "full arm swing" (excluding some breaks) that which would include the shoulder. It's simply the byproduct of momentum.
Trust me it’s not impossible. Lol
Oikawa
Well-known member
For me, the best thing I ever did regarding my stroke was to start having the cue touch the chest and the chin. This makes a straight piston stroke effortless, since your body (chest and chin) naturally block the cue from moving off line and due to the sense of touch from the cue touching your chin and chest, you not only have your eyes to trust that everything is going straight, but also the physical sensation.
Before doing it like that, I used a pendulum stroke, and especially under pressure or on very hard shots it fell apart. I find the piston stroke with many contact points doens't break apart so easily, and is also very natural and simple once you get the other details in your stroke right.
Before doing it like that, I used a pendulum stroke, and especially under pressure or on very hard shots it fell apart. I find the piston stroke with many contact points doens't break apart so easily, and is also very natural and simple once you get the other details in your stroke right.
This has been discussed here many times before.
I urge everyone who is interested in the topic to watch what top players actually do.
Players as diverse Allison Fisher and Nick Varner have two distinct strokes.
1. For soft shots, the upper arm does not drop at all. That would be shots like the lag to see who breaks.
2. For power shots, such as drawing the cue ball the length of the table, the upper arm drops by about its own thickness -- maybe 4 inches.
I don't drop my elbow on soft shots, just like Nick and Allison. I do drop my elbow a little on power shots, just like Nick and Allison. I was never taught this -- it developed naturally over 60 years of playing. I suspect nobody taught Nick to do a particular thing with his elbow.
I have tried keeping my elbow perfectly still on power shots. It hurts the arm as the arm closes at the end of the shot. Just a few inches of drop relieves that binding/hurt.
Some coaches are teaching purposeful elbow drop. I think Johann is one of those and that Fedor is a product of that training. Fedor has a wider range of strokes as far as the elbow goes. On some power strokes his elbow drops maybe a foot. This gets a foot of follow through which is far more than you are going to get with only a little drop. But on softer shots he has very little elbow drop. Here's Fedor -- watch what he does:
I think that for people who are learning the game it is better to have a stroke that returns the tip to the point on the cue ball that they have addressed. Hit where you have lined up. Yes, there are champions who address one place and then hit another -- I think that's bad practice for beginners. To hit where you have addressed the ball, the elbow has to be in the same place at address and at contact.
Now that you have watched Fedor, does his elbow move between address and contact?
I urge everyone who is interested in the topic to watch what top players actually do.
Players as diverse Allison Fisher and Nick Varner have two distinct strokes.
1. For soft shots, the upper arm does not drop at all. That would be shots like the lag to see who breaks.
2. For power shots, such as drawing the cue ball the length of the table, the upper arm drops by about its own thickness -- maybe 4 inches.
I don't drop my elbow on soft shots, just like Nick and Allison. I do drop my elbow a little on power shots, just like Nick and Allison. I was never taught this -- it developed naturally over 60 years of playing. I suspect nobody taught Nick to do a particular thing with his elbow.
I have tried keeping my elbow perfectly still on power shots. It hurts the arm as the arm closes at the end of the shot. Just a few inches of drop relieves that binding/hurt.
Some coaches are teaching purposeful elbow drop. I think Johann is one of those and that Fedor is a product of that training. Fedor has a wider range of strokes as far as the elbow goes. On some power strokes his elbow drops maybe a foot. This gets a foot of follow through which is far more than you are going to get with only a little drop. But on softer shots he has very little elbow drop. Here's Fedor -- watch what he does:
I think that for people who are learning the game it is better to have a stroke that returns the tip to the point on the cue ball that they have addressed. Hit where you have lined up. Yes, there are champions who address one place and then hit another -- I think that's bad practice for beginners. To hit where you have addressed the ball, the elbow has to be in the same place at address and at contact.
Now that you have watched Fedor, does his elbow move between address and contact?
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If I said the elbow bends up, that was an error, I meant the elbow angle bends more on the pendulum stroke whereas on the elbow drop stroke the elbow angle actually decreases.