Jayson Shaw First Contracted Pro on WNT

[iusedtoberich]

I think it would be nice if some of the retired and semi-retired USA pros came back on "tour" now that MR has something going. I wonder if they could be competitive again?

Archer
Strickland
Corey
Dechaine
Bergman
Mills
Morris
J. Hall

 

[Bob Jewett]

.... On MR's site, they don't list the Turnigstone in their ranking events schedule.

Edit: This comment on the Matchroom Pool FB page indicates TS is no longer a ranking event. Both Turningstones in 2023 were ranking events.

Matchroom Pool​

The Universal 2nd Chinese Taipei Open begins tomorrow - the first ranking event on the 2024 World Nineball Tour!
We’ll be streaming the action on YouTube from 8:30am GMT

 

[iusedtoberich]

The current schedule shown on the site is very spotty. Turningstone may not show up now because it has been completed. I thought I saw the Jan 2024 TS included in ranking events at one time. One problem is that Mike Zuglan does not use the MR break format but that hasn't kept it from being included before several times including both events in 2023.

I guess I'm just shocked then. I was in the Battle of the Bull event in VA. It was about the same prize level as the TS. It was STACKED with the top international pros.

Maybe because Zuglan fills his event 6 months in advance, the regular Joss players fill most of the spots?

 

[Bob Jewett]

I guess I'm just shocked then. I was in the Battle of the Bull event in VA. It was about the same prize level as the TS. It was STACKED with the top international pros.

Maybe because Zuglan fills his event 6 months in advance, the regular Joss players fill most of the spots?

TS was not a ranking event. See my edit above.

 

[Kris_b1104]

I guess I'm just shocked then. I was in the Battle of the Bull event in VA. It was about the same prize level as the TS. It was STACKED with the top international pros.

Maybe because Zuglan fills his event 6 months in advance, the regular Joss players fill most of the spots?

I think the reason TS isn't a ranking event is because all tournaments this year must adhere to WNT rules to be considered a ranking event, to keep it consistent across the board, and Zuglan doesn't want to change the rules that he's had for so long. For example, rack for your opponent, no template, NO jump cues, etc. I kind of agree with that. If you're playing by your own rules, why should it be considered a ranking event? Every Matchroom or WNT event allows jump cues...

Also, I read that only the top 128 ranked players were offered a contract.

"Players have been putting pen to paper in their numbers after the top 128 on the world nineball rankings at the beginning of this year received a contract which confirms their status as a tour professional for this season.

Becoming a tour professional and signing that World Professional Nineball Pool Corporation (WPNPC) contract ensures that players will receive spots at all major open championships and be in contention for invitational events such as the Mosconi Cup, the World Pool Masters and the incoming Reyes Cup."

So anyone who ranked 129th and lower last year have not been offered a contract, which sucks for some American players like Eberle and Strickland who won't even be given a contract to sign...

 

[jasonlaus]

I don't know for fact but I don't think Turningstone was a MR ranking event. All those events get a bunch of traveling pros. The MR event had about the same field it usually gets: Mostly the Joss participants plus a few scattered pros.

I checked the summary article about Shaw winning on the AZB homepage, and it did not mention MR once. On MR's site, they don't list the Turnigstone in their ranking events schedule.

Does the lowest score win now? Pretty sure Fedor was the one with 13 next to his name which would mean Fedor won

 

[skogstokig]

I think the reason TS isn't a ranking event is because all tournaments this year must adhere to WNT rules to be considered a ranking event, to keep it consistent across the board, and Zuglan doesn't want to change the rules that he's had for so long. For example, rack for your opponent, no template, NO jump cues, etc. I kind of agree with that. If you're playing by your own rules, why should it be considered a ranking event? Every Matchroom or WNT event allows jump cues...

Also, I read that only the top 128 ranked players were offered a contract.

"Players have been putting pen to paper in their numbers after the top 128 on the world nineball rankings at the beginning of this year received a contract which confirms their status as a tour professional for this season.

Becoming a tour professional and signing that World Professional Nineball Pool Corporation (WPNPC) contract ensures that players will receive spots at all major open championships and be in contention for invitational events such as the Mosconi Cup, the World Pool Masters and the incoming Reyes Cup."

So anyone who ranked 129th and lower last year have not been offered a contract, which sucks for some American players like Eberle and Strickland who won't even be given a contract to sign...

View attachment 737338

both earl and max are likely to get a tour card. there are 7 players ahead of max and 10 players ahead of earl. there's bound to be more than 10 players that choose the WPA route.

 

[sjm]

TS was not a ranking event. See my edit above.

Thanks, Bob. I mistakenly believed it was a ranking event, but Zuglan has the longest running tour in the United States and Turning Stone's field is greatly oversubscribed every year. Why on earth would he change a formula that has been working since the 1990s?

 

[iusedtoberich]

Thanks, Bob. I mistakenly believed it was a ranking event, but Zuglan has the longest running tour in the United States and Turning Stone's field is greatly oversubscribed every year. Why on earth would he change a formula that has been working since the 1990s?

I suppose if he wanted a field full of marquee players he would change it. This has always been a "Joss Tour season end championship event", meant to reward regular Joss Tour participants.

 

[jbart65]

Turning Stone, the Taipei Open and the Derby City 9-ball are Matchroom ranking events. All three of these are in January.

I would only call Derby City big, but it is not Matchroom produced. Still think MR needs big MR-produced tourney sometime in Jan-March. Wouldn't mind if they bought the rights to Derby City and produced it, though I imagine it would produce some hollers. Make the prize fund bigger as well.

Looks like MR either eliminated or downgraded the Spanish Open. Too bad. Looked like a good event last year and well attended.

 

[skogstokig]

a slew of players signed today/yesterday. the herd is becoming really thin for WPA. if they continue with the qatar and china open it's gonna be wojciech and a bunch of chinese monsters duking it out

 

[Bella Don't Cry]

Are you saying lack of members like “lack of players” or “lack of federations”? Because I don’t see them having a lack of federations. They are comprised of those federations. And if you mean lack of players, they might not have the top commercially viable players but they could still operate their Olympic-affiliated structure with juniors, amateurs, and semi-pros. The only thing they’re losing here is the spotlight. The Olympic structure is self perpetuating in a bureaucratic capacity.

Very true
I suppose it's like the NBA (MR being the professional arm of the sport) that deals with American professional basketball and nothing else.

However, the annual basketball interest is always in the NBA and not amateur basketball.

The ace in the hole for the WPA is inclusion into the Olympics, however they have done very little over the past 30 years to increase the numbers in youth participation.

Even the APA, is now moving away from it's Junior sector.

So how does the WPA lure youth into the game when the youth will only see MR as the professional arm of the sport?

I just find it all fascinating to say the least.

 

[Bella Don't Cry]

And I wonder if it even matters to the WPA (and its financial backers) if the top players don’t participate in WPA events? What difference would it make to the IOC or Qatar if the WPA world champion is Josh Filler or John Doe?

Agreed. Names on a leaderboard don't matter.

The WPA must be very, very confident in it's youth participation program!

 

[kling&allen]

Because nobody is watching if a Max Eberle speed player is top dog

Other than us, no one watches pool regardless who is playing. I can’t imagine the emir of Qatar knows the difference between a Max Eberle and Josh Filler.

 

[garczar]

I think the reason TS isn't a ranking event is because all tournaments this year must adhere to WNT rules to be considered a ranking event, to keep it consistent across the board, and Zuglan doesn't want to change the rules that he's had for so long. For example, rack for your opponent, no template, NO jump cues, etc. I kind of agree with that. If you're playing by your own rules, why should it be considered a ranking event? Every Matchroom or WNT event allows jump cues...

Also, I read that only the top 128 ranked players were offered a contract.

"Players have been putting pen to paper in their numbers after the top 128 on the world nineball rankings at the beginning of this year received a contract which confirms their status as a tour professional for this season.

Becoming a tour professional and signing that World Professional Nineball Pool Corporation (WPNPC) contract ensures that players will receive spots at all major open championships and be in contention for invitational events such as the Mosconi Cup, the World Pool Masters and the incoming Reyes Cup."

So anyone who ranked 129th and lower last year have not been offered a contract, which sucks for some American players like Eberle and Strickland who won't even be given a contract to sign...

View attachment 737338

Derby City is a ranking event and they don't allow jump cues.

 

[MattPoland]

Very true
I suppose it's like the NBA (MR being the professional arm of the sport) that deals with American professional basketball and nothing else.

However, the annual basketball interest is always in the NBA and not amateur basketball.

The ace in the hole for the WPA is inclusion into the Olympics, however they have done very little over the past 30 years to increase the numbers in youth participation.

Even the APA, is now moving away from it's Junior sector.

So how does the WPA lure youth into the game when the youth will only see MR as the professional arm of the sport?

I just find it all fascinating to say the least.

I think we need to keep in mind what the structure is.

• International Olympic Committee
  • General Assemble of International Sports Federations
    • Sports Federation (like WCBS for cuesports)
      • Discipline-specific Sports Federations (like WPA for pocket billiards)
        • Continental Sports Federations (like EPBF for Europe)
          • National Sports Federations (like PZBil for Poland).

Polish Case Study
So you have to keep in mind how responsibilities divide across that structure. The development of a youth program in Poland would be the responsibility of the PZBil, not the WPA. The PZBil would secure financial support through various forms including government grants, sponsorships, fundraising events, donations, collaborations, crowdfunding, and membership fees. So it's not a question of what the WPA does for youth pool, it's about what the WPA does for PZBil to empower it to support youth pool. The answer to that question is the WPA gives it status. By being a member of the chain above, the PZBil becomes officially Olympic-affiliated (whether pool is in the Olympic Games or not). For example, the PZBil would likely not be able to get government grants at all without Olympic-affiliation. So all the WPA needs to do for PZBil is exist and maintain good standing with IOC. All the rest is the responsibility of PZBil.

US Case Study
So now let's try to apply that to the USA. The first thing to notice is that the BCA is a continental federation for pool and not a national federation. The US does not even have a national federation. Second, the US government has a policy not to fund sports grants. Third, Olympic-affiliated funding is the responsibility in the US for the non-profit organization called the USOPC. The USOPC sells off broadcasting and licensing rights for the US Olympics and directs that to US Olympic-affiliated federations. For a number of reasons, the USOPC does not fund the BCA. Meanwhile the BCA does in fact have a junior program, the BEF. In this case, the BCA funds the BEF through various sources but Olympic-affiliation plays no role in that funding. So from a US perspective, yes the existence of the WPA doesn't mean much for the development of youth pool as it actually does internationally.

WPA Role
The WPA is not what we imagine it should be because it's not intended to be that.

So very often we find ourselves as US fans asking more of the WPA than it is chartered to do. It is purely a bureaucratic entity. It only exists to make sure the expectations of the IOC and WCBS are enforced within their structure below them to maintain their good Olympic-affiliated standing. Beyond that they do a couple other things like "fruitlessly try to get pool into the Olympics" and license out the rights to run Olympic-affiliated World Championships. Very rarely are they even able to hold an event themselves or run a program. Sure, they collect sanction fees but my understanding is a large portion of that just goes to them bringing a drug testing program to pool in order to stay in good standing with the IOC by maintaining WADA compliance. A lot of people look at them and say "follow the money" but don't actually make an attempt to do so.

(This sounds like I'm pro-WPA. I'm not. I'm an advocate for separating commercial pool from Olympic-affiliation if that's financially viable. I believe the WNT is in a position to do so successfully albeit in their infancy of doing so. I just think we're better positioned to do that if we better understand what the WPA even is.)

 

[MattPoland]

Other than us, no one watches pool regardless who is playing. I can’t imagine the emir of Qatar knows the difference between a Max Eberle and Josh Filler.

I think the WPA structure can live on without the top players. But Qatar specifically as an event is likely not to happen if big names don't attend. Someone (not the WPA) is putting up the money to produce and promote that specific event and they won't want to do so if it becomes lackluster. It might not have been a great event on the commercial stage but it meant something important to some rich people that love pool over there. Those rich people could close their pocket books.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I think the Universal Taipei open is a more marquee event than the DCC. Look at its player's list. It's almost all the top Asian pros. DCC 9 ball is mostly amateurs. For us in the states, DCC is a big deal. But I think winning the Taipei Open is a bigger title, IMO

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[Bob Jewett]

Derby City is a ranking event and they don't allow jump cues.

DCC has never used standard rules so far as I know even when it had WPA sanction for one or two years. They also allow double hits as long as you are jacked up and they have the goofy kitchen rule.

 

[sjm]

So very often we find ourselves as US fans asking more of the WPA than it is chartered to do. It is purely a bureaucratic entity.

Yes, but it's a bureaucratic entity that recently opted to compete with, rather than defer to, Matchroom in the conception/production of major pro events and took it to the logical extreme when it announced that players participating in even a single Matchroom major will be banned from participation in all WPA-sanctioned events. Like most, I'd much prefer that Matchroom steer the ship that is professional pool. They are the ones that have made their business model work in several other sports.

Nonetheless, its deplorable actions in 2023 should not lessen our appreciation for the impact WPA has had on pro pool. The Olympic dream may well have died but the money paid to federations has, largely, come from payments that the WPA secured from the IOC by getting pool recognized as a sport just over twenty years ago. Those payments have caused pool to grow and thrive throughout the world.

Last year, we had a world champion from Spain and another from Albania. At the Spanish Open, we had a bronze medalist from Lithuania. At the World 8ball, we had a silver medalist from Bosnia. A Russian player was the Derby City Master of the Table and a Singaporean won the International 9ball. A Serbian took bronze at the US Open 9ball. An Austrian won the American 14.1. Who could have imagined all this before WPA began to offer financial sponsorship to the various national federations?

Federation money has globalized our sport at all levels of play and has made pro pool better than it has ever been by enhancing pool's worldwide infrastructure. There's no reason to think this can't continue and, for that reason, I see the WPA as vital to the continued growth of the game.

I'm pro-WPA, but I want it to play a different role than it seems to want to play in our sport. Let WPA focus on growing the game worldwide at the grassroots level, as it has already done with no small measure of success.