70s/80s Era Questions

[Pawlowski424]

So, here's my list of questions lol:

What was the general pocket size for pro-speed tournaments?

What were table conditions like?

I've noticed players of this era (Varner, Hall, Sigel, etc) playing with steel joint. What was the belief behind forward balanced/steel joint cues?

Is the information that's available today (pocket lines, cue ball physics, navigating the table, etc. Advanced details, so to speak), the same information as back then? If not, what has changed?

 

[Taxi]

The tournament I play in every week has 8 tables that range from 9 on a 10 scale of fast, to playing on a carpet. I've found it much easier to go from the slower table to the faster one than vice versa. The fast table requires a mental adjustment to slow down your stroke, but once you've made that adjustment you can move the cue ball pretty much anywhere from any position. OTOH the slower table forces you into many positions where even a pro would be hard pressed to get the cue ball from one end of the table to the other. Obviously the way to deal with that is to keep hyper-aware about maintaining the proper angle, but that doesn't work when it's your opponent who's left you in that impossible position. This is why the better players are always wanting to play on that faster table.

 

[DeadStick]

HUGE difference: people carried cash.

Cash is great, but it’s nice sometimes to have a permanent record of a win, like this one I had over ZM in a bar a couple years ago.

The game was 8-ball, and we started at $20/game. I won, he said double or nothing, I won again, and so it went until he was down $720, exclaimed “I quit”, Venmo’d me, and we sat down and had a few beers. After his third beer, he said “one more game, double or nothing,” and of course I agreed. And won. He sent me another $720.

Then we walked out to the parking lot and had a smoke next to his Maserati. At which point I knew I left a lot of money on the table.

 

[cjr3559]

I was young in the 80s, but tables in commercial settings seemed slow because everyone smoked and the cloth was totally contaminated. Not to mention the balls.

OTOH, tournament conditions from back then appear fast and clean.

 

[dspaboss]

Exactky. The OP question was about evolution of cloths from the 70’s/80’s with respect to pro tournament play, not ice skating rink Day 1 installation cloth. I had a friend who had a heated pool table with 760. Wasnt fun. But that also didn’t represent normal fast cloth.

And then you ran across the odd person who either by ignorance or design, sometimes it might not be clear,
would put absolutely the wrong cloth on a table. Like the fella I met one time with Simonis 300 (3 cushion cloth)
on his Olhausen 8ft home table.
Imagine playing on a formica counter top, the balls skated around like it was an air hockey table, and he had
one of those too.

 

[WardS]

Imo;

HUGE difference; many folks who played well below varner/ sigel/ hall were able to squeak out a living through playing the game. Hiding their speed and remaining unsung.

HUGE difference: people carried cash.

No cell phones

 

[BasementDweller]

I was young in the 80s, but tables in commercial settings seemed slow because everyone smoked and the cloth was totally contaminated. Not to mention the balls.

OTOH, tournament conditions from back then appear fast and clean.

The environment definitely slowed things down. The tar from smoking was everywhere in the 90s, mixed with equal parts chalk and baby powder. If I played anywhere for a few hours my pants would always be stained up from leaning over the table.

 

[Taxi]

The environment definitely slowed things down. The tar from smoking was everywhere in the 90s, mixed with equal parts chalk and baby powder. If I played anywhere for a few hours my pants would always be stained up from leaning over the table.

In terms of reducing table contamination, the advent of gloves and carbon shafts have been a blessing. Up through the 90's many pool hall tables often looked like a flock of birds had frolicked in a tub of coke and then started staggering all over the cloth. And naturally the players who were using all that powder never deigned to clean up after themselves, kind of like people who walk their dogs without bringing along a pooper scooper. God bless gloves and carbon shafts.

 

[WardS]

It’s expensive but Toam V10 has done wonders for my table and wood shafts. I will gladly pay the price to avoid the usual mess

 

[Pawlowski424]

The tournament I play in every week has 8 tables that range from 9 on a 10 scale of fast, to playing on a carpet. I've found it much easier to go from the slower table to the faster one than vice versa. The fast table requires a mental adjustment to slow down your stroke, but once you've made that adjustment you can move the cue ball pretty much anywhere from any position. OTOH the slower table forces you into many positions where even a pro would be hard pressed to get the cue ball from one end of the table to the other. Obviously the way to deal with that is to keep hyper-aware about maintaining the proper angle, but that doesn't work when it's your opponent who's left you in that impossible position. This is why the better players are always wanting to play on that faster table.

I agree...I have some, "benchmarks," that are tougher for me to adjust to when going from fast to slow. When the cue ball turns over so quickly, so much is effected. Stun, kicks, bottom action on the cue ball when theres distance, etc.

 

[jay helfert]

in the 70"s and 80's the pacific northwest was more bar room pool. most towns had action bars and plenty of ten to twenty dollar 8 ball games
or much higher only in certain towns. oregon was the best action bar action that is ever anywhere for intermediate gambling.
when the timber industry slowed so did tavern pool gambling to an extent.

basically the west coast was growing in all aspects in those years and money flowed around. pool followed it.

Correct, I spent a few weeks circumnavigating the bar pool scene up there in the 1970’s. You left out the best part. Most of the bar tables were 4x8 tables. I loved that.

 

[jay helfert]

Very few. Some places shimmed-up their action tables. Poolrooms were all 4.75+ corners.

Most action poolrooms had one or two tables (Gold Crowns) with shimmed pockets. What we used to call “pocket liners.”

 

[jay helfert]

Bob didnt say that! The cloth back then was slower. Even if Simonis existed, most anywhere was slower cloth. Simonis didn’t start to become the standard until the 90’s. Take a look at the televised 1986 Last Call for 9-ball. Look how every shot, the players are smashing the cueball. No soft bunting around. Look at any Efren Reyes video from back then. He struggled with position play conpared to his dominant control of the cueball when the conditions became easier, faster and more predictable.

Back in the days when Steven’s was the traditional cloth on most pool tables you needed to have a “stroke” to move the cue ball around. When we talked about the best players, who had the best stroke was always part of the equation.

 

[jay helfert]

I used to go to Palace and Cochrans during the early and mid 60's and I can tell you a huge book could have been written about Cochrans and Palace actually. Cochrans in particular had all kinds of stories that could have been written about all the things that went on there. It had its dark side that's for sure, here's just one thing that happened there:

Although I didn't see this, but if my recollection is correct a murder is what finally caused the famed 'Cochran's' pool room in San Francisco to a close in the early to mid sixties. The place had become a pretty rough place towards the end. There was an incident where someone didn't pay off his debt on some game, (it may have been a game of pink ball that was popular back then) and he was promptly dragged into the mens' bathroom where he was pummeled to the floor. An old man who was taking a leak while this happened simply looked over his should and said "yep that otta get it!"

I spent time in both places in the 1960’s on two different extended visits to the Bay area. Probably a month or so each time. Market street at night could be a dangerous place, but I was used to being in places like that. Walk briskly and be aware of who’s around you at all times. And carry some protection just in case!

I preferred the Palace, more good games between top players and it was safe inside. In Cochrans you got to see the scum of the Earth all around you. Anybody could come in there. The Palace would keep the riff raff out, although they did let people sleep in the chairs. Both places were open 24 hours. I liked the food at the Palace a lot better too.

Best of all I made money in there. I don’t think I ever won a dime in Cochrans.

 

[Cornerman]

Back in the days when Steven’s was the traditional cloth on most pool tables you needed to have a “stroke” to move the cue ball around. When we talked about the best players, who had the best stroke was always part of the equation.

I think the problem is that we don’t have enough videos to show people who didn’t watch and play in that era. Stevens and Mali are what I grew up on. And most places didn’t have air conditioning or good lighting.

 

[jay helfert]

I only stayed in San Francisco briefly in 1969, and most of my pool playing was at Kip's in Berkeley. But I did get to the Palace long enough to get smoked by a pot bellied hippie looking guy who I later learned was the great Denny Searcy, who was maybe the greatest payball artist ever, and not a bad nine ball player, either. Most of what I remember about the Palace was its leather slop pockets and nicely maintained new cloth. There was also a bar downstairs that featured gigantic steamship round roast beef sandwiches for all of a buck. It took half an hour to get your teeth through the tough cut of meat and the Kaiser roll, but for that price you couldn't complain.

You saw Denny at his peak! He was truly a world beater!

I spent a week or so hanging at Kips. All the college kids with their allowance in there. So many of them thought they knew how to play pool because they could shoot balls in the pockets. I was making 40 or 50 a day playing $2 9-Ball. I got sick as hell and had to stay in my hotel room (think it was called the San Carlos).

I was on the second floor with a room looking out over Peoples Park. The powers that be had fenced off the park and were preparing to turn it into a parking lot. The kids were pissed about it and one morning I woke up to the sound of screaming and yelling. Mobs of kids were tearing down the chain link fences and squads of cops were trying to stop them. I had a front row seat to the whole thing from a safe perch.

Many kids got hurt that day and one kid got killed. After dark I ventured out to Kips. There were police riot squads marching up and down the streets spraying tear gas at kids who were throwing things and yelling at them. I made it to Kips but several of us got sprayed in the entrance hall way. The gas went into the room and everybody was coughing inside. I waited an hour or so and stealthily snuck back to my hotel. At the crack of dawn I got the hell out of there!

Check out the People’s Park riots online. I was there, late 60’s!

 

[jay helfert]

How did payball work? I remember reading about it here and in "Playing Off the Rail," but I don't have a clue how it's played.

Six balls on a Snooker table, numbered 2-7 (snooker balls). It was a Ring game with anywhere from three to six players. Every ball was a money ball and the seven paid double. A big game was 10 and 20, ten dollars a ball and twenty on the seven. When you made a money ball everyone paid you and if you ran out they all paid double!

So in a five handed 10-20 game every ball was worth $40 and the seven was worth $80. A run out (2-7) was worth $480! $120 per player ($60 doubled for the run out to $120, times four players). Denny Searcy won over $25,000 two years in a row in Dayton! He pretty much busted everybody.

 

[L.S. Dennis]

I spent time in both places in the 1960’s on two different extended visits to the Bay area. Probably a month or so each time. Market street at night could be a dangerous place, but I was used to being in places like that. Walk briskly and be aware of who’s around you at all times. And carry some protection just in case!

I preferred the Palace, more good games between top players and it was safe inside. In Cochrans you got to see the scum of the Earth all around you. Anybody could come in there. The Palace would keep the riff raff out, although they did let people sleep in the chairs. Both places were open 24 hours. I liked the food at the Palace a lot better too.

Best of all I made money in there. I don’t think I ever won a dime in Cochrans.

Your description of both places is spot on. I remember Palace as bring a safe place to be for the most part. They had a cue repair shot on premises, nice railbird seating all around so you could watch all the games going on. I remember watching Joe Bachelor running racks of straight pool with his wonderful position play.

Cochrans on the other hand was another story as you point out. The few times I went there there was always a feeling of uneasiness in that place. It's no wonder it ended up closing the way it did.

That upstairs room sat empty from the time of its closing until Tony Annigoni got some investors together to bring that place back to life in the early 90's as The Q Club (which later became Hollywood Billiards before finally closing again this time for good). Tony did a wonderful job in setting the place up and retuning it to its former glory even refurbishing the old cue lockers that were still there and proudly displaying J.T.S. Brown behind the beautiful refinished mahogany bar, the place was beautiful. But alas what worked in the 50's no longer worked in the 90's as there was no safe parking in that bad Tenderloin area and you never knew what to expect on the street below after that walk down those stairs. What a shame!

 

[BasementDweller]

... Look at any Efren Reyes video from back then. He struggled with position play conpared to his dominant control of the cueball when the conditions became easier, faster and more predictable.

Using Efren as an example is probably not helping your side of the argument. He literally won his very first event on U.S. soil. He also came from the Philippines (which I know you're well aware). Do you really think he wasn't familiar with and dominating the competition on "slower" tables back home? His biggest problem early on was just getting over the finish line, he wasn't having trouble going deep in tournaments.

cornerman some people here don't care or believe what some have experienced, only what they suppose.
and not much can change their minds on how they think.

It's not that I don't believe their accounts, it's that the archived video evidence continues to accumulate, and most of the video evidence, probably at least 9 out of 10 videos, if viewed through an objective lens, doesn't show these really slow conditions that many would like us to believe. The IPT experiment wasn't that long ago either and it just didn't prove out that the slower cloth changed things that much. Efren (see above paragraph) didn't have any trouble, and the tables didn't even really appear that slow anyway.

Some of this is probably due to the "back in my day" narrative that we can all be guilty of from time to time.

Gotta disagree.

There is nothing worse than playing on fast cloth and in fact most places wait a few weeks after new cloth has been installed to break it in, which translates to it slowing it up. I have played in events where the cloth and balls were new it is was almost impossible. You want the cloth to offer some resistance so you can gauge your position play. Good players are not going five rails for positions -- maybe two, three, and very occasionally four when they get out of line.

Faster cloth makes things tougher. I suppose if the tables you're playing on have big pockets then perhaps the faster equals easier argument holds up but for any kind of decent player, on reasonably tough equipment, you want some grab from the cloth because you're not going to be so out of line that faster cloth helps.

Lou Figueroa

If I can find it -- I think it was CreeDo who had a great post about fast cloth years ago where he spelled out why he thought it was more difficult. I'll see if I can find it.

During the whole transition to Simonis there was the period where the players complained about things getting too fast. I think Greg Sullivan played a role in the whole transition. I think they tried 760 first and then finally settled on creating a new cloth -- 860. 860 isn't even super fast in my estimation. It all has way more to do with the rails. If the rails are super bouncy, then it doesn't really even matter what cloth is on the table. This is what we see repeatedly in old videos. The healthy tables with lively rails and the older woolen cloth appears to perform just fine. Contrast that with even more recent videos you can find of matches on slow tables. You'll sometimes see this with older Gold Crowns, that are either in need of cushion replacement or they were recently recovered and probably have the rail cloth too tight and needing to be broken in. If the cloth is fast and the rails are slow -- good luck getting the ball around the table.

Bottom line for me -- I think the older woolen "slower" cloth gets way too much focus. Video after video show fast tables pre-Simonis. So maybe, just maybe the culprit of slow tables, where they existed, was more attributable to poor cushions.

 

[Cornerman]

Using Efren as an example is probably not helping your side of the argument. He literally won his very first event on U.S. soil. He also came from the Philippines (which I know you're well aware). Do you really think he wasn't familiar with and dominating the competition on "slower" tables back home? His biggest problem early on was just getting over the finish line, he wasn't having trouble going deep in tournaments.

It's not that I don't believe their accounts, it's that the archived video evidence continues to accumulate, and most of the video evidence, probably at least 9 out of 10 videos, if viewed through an objective lens, doesn't show these really slow conditions that many would like us to believe. The IPT experiment wasn't that long ago either and it just didn't prove out that the slower cloth changed things that much. Efren (see above paragraph) didn't have any trouble, and the tables didn't even really appear that slow anyway.

Some of this is probably due to the "back in my day" narrative that we can all be guilty of from time to time.


If I can find it -- I think it was CreeDo who had a great post about fast cloth years ago where he spelled out why he thought it was more difficult. I'll see if I can find it.

During the whole transition to Simonis there was the period where the players complained about things getting too fast. I think Greg Sullivan played a role in the whole transition. I think they tried 760 first and then finally settled on creating a new cloth -- 860. 860 isn't even super fast in my estimation. It all has way more to do with the rails. If the rails are super bouncy, then it doesn't really even matter what cloth is on the table. This is what we see repeatedly in old videos. The healthy tables with lively rails and the older woolen cloth appears to perform just fine. Contrast that with even more recent videos you can find of matches on slow tables. You'll sometimes see this with older Gold Crowns, that are either in need of cushion replacement or they were recently recovered and probably have the rail cloth too tight and needing to be broken in. If the cloth is fast and the rails are slow -- good luck getting the ball around the table.

Bottom line for me -- I think the older woolen "slower" cloth gets way too much focus. Video after video show fast tables pre-Simonis. So maybe, just maybe the culprit of slow tables, where they existed, was more attributable to poor cushions.

Too much to even discuss. i dont need to prove my argument. I lnow I’m already correct. I lived it. I think @jay helfert and his experience as tournament director would be enough for anyone to get the skinny on this. So is SJM’s worldly exoerience as both a player and the ultimate spectator..

Efren may have dominated “back home,” but he did not dominate the competition in the USA. He literally won 5 major tournaments from 1985 -1990. Nick won twice that in just one year. Sigel and Strickland were collecting titles at 3 or more every year. But please tell me, as one of Efren’s biggest fans is those years, hiw he dominated anything? He dominated 2nd place and often not even that. It is clear as anything that the faster cloth made his weak break less of a disadvantage. He cueball control thrived in the faster cloth era.


If you didnt see it, you didnt see it. I’m okay with that. But please dont make it sound like I didnt see it! That would be silly. It’s very easy to see Efren’s patterns and paths from the 80’s videos and how they differ in the faster cloth era.

 

[BasementDweller]

Too much to even discuss. i dont need to prove my argument. I lnow I’m already correct. I lived it. I think @jay helfert and his experience as tournament director would be enough for anyone to get the skinny on this. So is SJM’s worldly exoerience as both a player and the ultimate spectator..

Efren may have dominated “back home,” but he did not dominate the competition in the USA. He literally won 5 major tournaments from 1985 -1990. Nick won twice that in just one year. Sigel and Strickland were collecting titles at 3 or more every year. But please tell me, as one of Efren’s biggest fans is those years, hiw he dominated anything? He dominated 2nd place and often not even that. It is clear as anything that the faster cloth made his weak break less of a disadvantage. He cueball control thrived in the faster cloth era.

I didn't say he "dominated" here. That's you exaggerating my position. Efren never really dominated here on "slow" cloth or fast. He just had a long successful career REGARDLESS of the conditions he played under. I'll ask just one question: How did he have success in the IPT, with a "weak" break AND on slow cloth?

If you didnt see it, you didnt see it. I’m okay with that. But please dont make it sound like I didnt see it! That would be silly. It’s very easy to see Efren’s patterns and paths from the 80’s videos and how they differ in the faster cloth era.

Again you would have to argue with the actual evidence and not someone's opinion. In regards to Efren, the evidence points out that the table conditions mattered very little to him winning or losing. The game didn't even matter much. He succeeded at everything he tried on a pool table. The idea that it's the fast cloth that made him is a horrible argument.

P.S.
The idea that Efren had a weak break was greatly exaggerated as well. He had an average break. Which is much different than having a weak one. It wasn't really until 10 Ball become a popular game -- that his break disadvantage really showed up heavily in the results.