BHE vs FHE

[The_JV]

What I'm implying that you're making up is things like "put in the table time to circumvent the potential pitfall with inconsistent grip arm mechanics." There are two falsehoods there, but they seem to be the basis of your "reasoning." There was never "inconsistent grip arm mechanics," and there was never "putting in the table time to circumvent the potential pitfalls." That's just made up AZ stuff that if you don't make it up, they become non-debates. I'm glad you're more than willing to admit it may not be "all that difficult to overcome," but your premise is that there is something difficult to "overcome."

1. Not having your grip arm in an identical orientation during multiple shots, is literally the definition of it being inconsistent. I can't wrap my head around you think it otherwise.
2. ..and again 'literally' everyone is required to put table time in to build up the muscle memory to perform consistent mechanics. No one, can side step this requirement. Having an inconsistent stroke will require additional table time to do so. A variable stroke mechanic (right vs left english) gives you more to learn and recall to be proficient. So pretending there was two of you. The version developing BHE proficiency would take longer. More for you muscles to learn versus the version that only need to cue naturally, (no BHE pivot).

None of the above is made up. It may be an unenjoyable pill to swallow, but reality is sometimes a bitch. Some players may never gain any proficiency in developing consistent mechanics. I think they may consider it somewhat difficult. I put in years doing it, and I never deviated from a single form.

If "pure backhand english," whatever that means to you, doesn't work for you, is illogical / incosistent/incorehent to you, then it's going to be a bigger con than it is a pro for you. I was just on the table, and going through a few racks with a higher deflection cue, paying close attention to the pivots... there's so little motion such that the description and visual of that motion does not align with pitfalls, inconsistent mechanics or any such made up things.

I use "pure" to exclude the torso pivot. Which we have agreed on to having no bearing on the application of BHE. I do so, not necessarily because of you, but for others that may be following along.

-The math behind tip displacement vs butt movement is physics. <- not making it up
-People struggling with mechanics regardless of method is reality we see on the forum and in local rooms every day. <- not making it up
-The best method for building muscle memory is continued and repeated identical form. <- not making it up
-Doing a repetitive physical task without regard for consistency is the best way to be inconsistent. <- not making it up

Your right, there is no debate. At least there shouldn't be. It's incredible this has gone on so long. Thank god we're not talking about the earth being flat.

 

[The_JV]

A positive out of all this discussion is that I revisited my Bull Carbon shaft and want Wes Bond to build me one that fits my Schuler.

Best CF shaft I hit

 

[BasementDweller]

For me at least, from Day 1 from my sharing my discussion with Hal, and that would be some 25 years ago, moving at least the head to get head alignment back was something disclosed. This hip movement, I admit on extreme english there is a slight shift, but you'd never see it. In the vast majority of my pivots, there is no movement. The hand movement is just too small to even think about moving the hips. If you were standing next to me, I know you'd see no need for additional movements as long as we're not talking extremes.

Could I be pre-shifting knowing I'm going to wag left or right? Possibly. I wouldn't deny it. But the vast majority of my shots with english, which is the majority of my shots, period, if there's body movement when I pivot, you'd have to be very nitpicky. There's as much movement or more when players are simply settling into their shot when down.

Fair enough. Guess I've just always had the view of BHE where you get locked into place first and only then do you adjust for english. That's how I've used it when I've messed around with it in the past. I've never competed using it though. I would fool around with it if had a strange cue I was messing with, or a cue with a pivot point closer to my bridge hand.

I'm curious what Dr Dave's definition of it is as he's sort of the de facto authority on pool definitions.

 

[BRKNRUN]

I figured what the hell.....I created a demonstration of the "self correcting" nature of BHE.....(If you know and bridge on the pivot point of a shaft)
NOTE: It is a pretty much straight in shot yes but this was not an OB hanging in the pocket....and I did not hit a stop shot here....my final stroke was off aim on purpose....seen by the spinning CB....I did not try and pick a specific amount of tip offset on the final stroke...I just "let er rip"...(my wife is right...I like to go left)

Obviously this is a joke and "extreme exaggeration" guys and girls.....but perhaps it will help show why someone with a crooked stroke (like me)....or even a person with a very straight stroke would prefer to use the BHE method.....(even though I strive for a perfect stroke...I will take the free help of BHE)

 

[slach]

maybe someone pointed this out already somewhere in all these posts...

Assuming BHE, a 60" cue and a 6" bridge:

To move your tip over 0.5" you need to move your back hand over about 4.5", the backhand moves over about 9 times the amount you want to move your tip.

 

[BasementDweller]

I've never had good luck with the BHE compensation tricks. I know it works as BnR depicted and it does seem like what you gain with low defection shafts you lose by forfeiting the bridge being at the pivot point. Guess it's just not for me. Sure would have helped my understanding of the game in the early years though.

As an aside -- the idea that someone like Efren could just randomly play with a low deflection shaft after more than 50 years without one -- blew my mind. Pretty sure that happened. That's as crazy to me as Morra switching hands.

 

[The_JV]

There's no denying the potential positives that being proficient with a bridge hand pivot (BHE & torso rotation) could provide. Just a shame there seems to be such a blind eye to the potential negatives this BHE could wreak on your mechanics during earlier development.

 

[ChrisinNC]

maybe someone pointed this out already somewhere in all these posts...

Assuming BHE, a 60" cue and a 6" bridge:

To move your tip over 0.5" you need to move your back hand over about 4.5", the backhand moves over about 9 times the amount you want to move your tip.

Very few have a 6” bridge, I would say 8”-9” is average. When using extreme off center ball spin, for most players I’m guessing there is likely a combination of butt pivoting (BHE) as well as some degree of parallel shift involved.

 

[Poolmanis]

Paging @Poolmanis

Could you answer the question of how you approach the cue ball when it comes to english usage? Do you approach the shot having already adjusted for english, or do you come down on a center ball aim line and adjust from there? I think I already know, but would like to hear how one of AZ's best players does it.

I try make aiming as simple as possible. Learning it can be quite a lot work, but end result i just point my cue where i need to get cut angle i want.
I am bad explaining it english so i made short video from my point of view. I noticed mic did drop few words out some reason.
I kinda believe SVB does same way as he talks sometimes about it in interview and many people say he is just trolling or whatever but i know exactly what im doing
If you don´t understand something on video ask away. I check thread later.

 

[BasementDweller]

Very interesting @Poolmanis .

Thank you.

One follow-up question. When applying sidespin, do you recognize the angle of the shot while you are standing, and then approach the shot with the necessary shaft offset as you're going down on the ball OR do you go down on the cue ball with a reference in mind, like the no sidespin line, and then adjust your shaft/aim from there?

 

[BC21]

I've never had good luck with the BHE compensation tricks. I know it works as BnR depicted and it does seem like what you gain with low defection shafts you lose by forfeiting the bridge being at the pivot point. Guess it's just not for me. Sure would have helped my understanding of the game in the early years though.

As an aside -- the idea that someone like Efren could just randomly play with a low deflection shaft after more than 50 years without one -- blew my mind. Pretty sure that happened. That's as crazy to me as Morra switching hands.

That's likely because Efren comes in on the shot with his cue and stance already in tune for whatever spin he's going to use, rather than getting down on the shot and then pivoting his back hand one way or another to apply spin.

A player with plenty of stroke and aiming experience can make any cue work just fine in no time at all. I'm old school though, having learned with traditional high deflection shafts before progressing to low deflection. So maybe that switch is easier, going from extreme aiming adjustments to minimal adjustments. I bet it's tougher going the other way, from a low deflection shaft to an old-school high deflection shaft. You'd be entering adjustment territory you never had to deal with, rather than simply backing off of already known variables.

 

[sparkle84]

Very interesting @Poolmanis .

Thank you.

One follow-up question. When applying sidespin, do you recognize the angle of the shot while you are standing, and then approach the shot with the necessary shaft offset as you're going down on the ball OR do you go down on the cue ball with a reference in mind, like the no sidespin line, and then adjust your shaft/aim from there?

I don't know what he'll answer but I do the former as do almost all top players I've ever known. Watch pro players on video or better yet in person, you're not going to see much of any pivoting the tip after they've got down and addressed the ball. It's all done beforehand. This allows what JV's been harping on to happen. Maintain consistent stroke mechanics.
This is disregarding that percentage of players who always set to the CB the same way and then adjust on the final stroke, but that's a different conversation.

 

[Cornerman]

That's likely because Efren comes in on the shot with his cue and stance already in tune for whatever spin he's going to use, rather than getting down on the shot and then pivoting his back hand one way or another to apply spin.

Efren has always used a form of Backhand English. He has actually shown AZ members in the past his version of Carabao English, which seems to be more of the Dynamic style of Backhand English.

 

[The_JV]

Efren has always used a form of Backhand English. He has actually shown AZ members in the past his version of Carabao English, which seems to be more of the Dynamic style of Backhand English.

I googled that on the off chance there was some reference in the WWW. lol..., definitely Filipino in origin but nothing to do with pool

 

[BasementDweller]

I don't know what he'll answer but I do the former as do almost all top players I've ever known. Watch pro players on video or better yet in person, you're not going to see much of any pivoting the tip after they've got down and addressed the ball. It's all done beforehand. This allows what JV's been harping on to happen. Maintain consistent stroke mechanics.
This is disregarding that percentage of players who always set to the CB the same way and then adjust on the final stroke, but that's a different conversation.

Well that's my hunch too but you haven't been paying attention. Several good players in this thread have said they don't do that. But imply it's an imperceptible movement that maybe we wouldn't pick up on.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I googled that on the off chance there was some reference in the WWW. lol..., definitely Filipino in origin but nothing to do with pool

"Water Buffalo" English.

pj
chgo

 

[BC21]

Efren has always used a form of Backhand English. He has actually shown AZ members in the past his version of Carabao English, which seems to be more of the Dynamic style of Backhand English.

I just know when I watch him play he doesn't do a pivot to apply spin.

 

[sparkle84]

Well that's my hunch too but you haven't been paying attention. Several good players in this thread have said they don't do that. But imply it's an imperceptible movement that maybe we wouldn't pick up on.

I'll admit I haven't paid that much attention. Lot of repetition in the last 5 pages with different parties saying the same thing 10 different ways and their opponents doing the same thing in the opposite direction.
That's without double o. If he was involved there'd be 15 pages.
Anyhow, too much thought about this type of stuff, as you pointed out, may be more harmful than helpful.

 

[Poolmanis]

Very interesting @Poolmanis .

Thank you.

One follow-up question. When applying sidespin, do you recognize the angle of the shot while you are standing, and then approach the shot with the necessary shaft offset as you're going down on the ball OR do you go down on the cue ball with a reference in mind, like the no sidespin line, and then adjust your shaft/aim from there?

I know I don´t pivot. yeah seeing angle when standing. If i dont feel it or need to be really accurate(example: sometimes you might see ball is straight in from up, but when u crouch you see there is hair cut to left.) i might crouch down and watch shot from table level, then get back up and calculate/feel when up.
Thinking might go like this " OK. Shot is just little thicker than half ball. I need high outside english with slow speed. high left english and slow speed will make swerve effect shot more then deflection. I aim my edge of cue (normally almost edge of ball) maybe 3mm to ball side from edge of ball."

That might sound a lot but in my head all is normally instant unless i don´t recognize and or i need study shot. Then i might do everything like that. I decide how i put my cue on line. Sometimes if I then go down and feel im off. I get up and ask myself why i am feeling im off? Maybe then do some double checking etc..

 

[Cornerman]

I googled that on the off chance there was some reference in the WWW. lol..., definitely Filipino in origin but nothing to do with pool

There’s plenty of information. Very well known, video’d, etc. TAR interviewed him on it. There’s also a Filipino book on it. @JoeyInCali can shed light as can @Jaden. Of course, I’ve watched Efren live like other people. It’s pretty obvious a dynamic English thing.