I’ve never (until now?) heard of playing with the cue under the non-dominant eye. How many are you aware of that do that?
How many of those I posted do you think are doing that? My educated guess is none.
pj
chgo
Dominant Eye before any aiming system
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How many of those I posted do you think are doing that? My educated guess is none.
pj
chgo
The first difficulty in answering those questions is to figure out which is the dominant eye of the player of interest.
But I think all of the interest in eye dominance is more or less irrelevant and the important thing is whether the player sees the shot accurately. I think this is most important for beginners so they don't groove a misperception, like Judd Trump.
I've been having a bit of fun but to make a point. Those photos are both me probably 10 years apart. When I was just "naturally" lining up a shot the cue was near my left (dominant) eye. The more I studied the fine points of my stroke delivery I found that I had better results with the cue under my non-dominant eye (although either way I could pocket most shots). I've settled on a location between my nose and right eye. A line up that is straight and looks straight (what you call the vision center) does not produce optimal results for me. I line up the cue just to the non dominant side of center.
That's been my problem with "vision center" as being all that. Only on AZ does this concept seem to be like one of the fundamental laws of nature. Mark Wilson wrote a pretty good book over 200 pages long and the words "vision center" don't appear once. He recommends repeatability and that can be achieved by centering the cue over the chin. For me, a bit farther over to one side allowed a more consistent stroking motion.
I don't know. I don't have all the answers but I've always thought the concept of "vision center" was not fully fleshed out. Where did it come from? I know Dr. Dave and Bob have a video about it but is it their idea?
Exactly! The mind will figure out how to make the shots look right in accordance with how the cue and body are aligned.
Eye dominance, imo, is a non-issue because the mind automatically makes it work, makes the connection needed between vision and body mechanics that allow us to pinpoint and hit a specific target, whether we're throwing a ball or a dart, or shooting a gun or a bow, or aiming a pool shot - anything that requires our "vision center" to be situated properly.
My point was that maybe vision center isn't any more important than eye dominance.
"Settled on a location" means you've found an optimal vision center to align, even though yours is an adjusted one (location a priority but not "looks straight" a priority).
Also, you avoided the suggestion--though Mark is an excellent instructor--to go under the chin, to an optimized location.
So “straight but looks crooked” or “crooked but looks straight” work better for you than “straight and looks straight”?
Very odd. Has anybody else ever said the same to you?
pj
chgo
It's not impossible that getting the head/body aligned so that straight looks straight is the wrong approach. Maybe it's actually better to be like Judd Trump where a tip off center looks straight to him and then the arm comes over to hit in the center on the final stroke. That would be quite a remarkable result. I doubt that there has ever been a definitive study.
However, if a beginning student lines up off-center with all the attendant apparent problems (miss to one side, unwanted side spin, can't lag straight), and we can find a different stance where straight looks straight, I'm going to urge the simpler alignment.
Simpler seems better to me.
Wilson teaches what he calls an "orthodox" position which includes the chin over the cue. He also says every body is different and if certain orthodox positions are difficult to achieve, then you have to do what you can. Please see my reply to PJ for more.
I have always enjoyed your witty remarks when they were directed at people who would not entertain reality (you know of whom I speak). In this case, however, those kinds of quips tell me you have your mind made up and won't even consider other possibilities. Maybe you are a master instructor who has gained such certainty through a decade of experience with students. If so, I'd like to know what is wrong with the approach that people like Mark Wilson teach, along with the things I've found for myself.
Concerning your comment above, when did I say the alignment looks crooked? My crooked alignment looked straight before I got into years of analysis, but that is not the trade off now. Here's an experiment for you to try. Stand next to a pool table such that you are looking down the long rail at the line where the rail surface meets the cloth cushion. It makes a long, straight line. Imagine the far corner pocket is an object ball and the side pocket is the cue ball. Stand where you can see straight down that line. It's a straight line, right? Now stand a foot to the left or right and what do you see? Does that line suddenly look crooked? No. It's still a straight line but now you are seeing it a little off to one side.
Why does that matter? In pondering that a bit today (I haven't thought about this in awhile) I remembered that when I cut a half ball shot to the left it went in but when I cut the exact same shot to the right it went fat. I played around with head position until both shots looked like half ball hits and they both went in (I suppose sort of like the "vision center" concept in a way). That head position happened to be heavily favoring my non dominant eye. I could surmise why that is but it would be a guess. In addition, this position allowed for a more natural take-back of the cue. Before my head position change it felt like I had to draw the cue away from my body to keep it aligned. As an aside, I eventually realized that the shot could be ruined by even a little bit of muscle tension in the hand, but that did not really alter my head position findings.
So, I found a position where left and right cuts work equally, the take back is natural AND on the shot line, and dead center balls are dead center balls. The only thing is that when I get down on the shot I am not looking down the barrel of the shaft with my dominant eye. Maybe it would be nice if I did, and maybe I could work at the vision center some more and make it work, but I'm not sure there is a point.
In conclusion, and not intending to spend this much time on this, "vision center" from where I sit looks more like a hypothesis than a law and I'm still no closer to knowing where this term came from.
Yes, of course. But his problem might not be that crooked looks straight. I don't know if beginners even see the end of the cue when they shoot. You really can't see more than a fraction of the cue when down on the shot so the take back needs to be on line, not exclusively the optics.
Well, you know all of this certainly better than I. Did you ever open that file that was trying to download? d
You said:
And I described the only two other possibilities (straight looks crooked or crooked looks straight) - I didn't mean to say which is yours.
I didn't see anybody say it's a law - I said a players' vision center (where straight looks straight) usually favors the dominant eye. This seems to me to be a given considering what we know about how eye dominance works for us - and likely isn't usually a conscious choice.
I'm pretty sure I first heard the term from Dr. Dave.
pj
chgo
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The fact you think one of those characterize my situation means I haven't really explained things very clearly. I wasn't planning on spending a lot of time on this. If you follow the vision center thing it is supposed to put your head in a spot where straight looks straight. That does not insure that you can actually stroke your arm in a comfortable way or even see left and right cuts correctly as I mentioned before. The idea I was getting at (rather than the crooked options you mentioned) is that once you know that the ob/cb/cue alignment is straight via a laser line or other means, straight always looks straight no matter where your head is. Before you say, "Aha! so straight looks straight and you've found your vision center!" that isn't correct. "Vision center" implies one specific head position. I'm saying you might need to put your head a little to one side or the other if that allows an automatically straight take-back and symmetrical view of cut shots.
I understand and agree that anyone who picks up a cue and lines up a shot is going to put it near or under their dominant eye, vision center or not. It's just a casual observation that the vision center concept is given "fact" status on AZ whenever someone brings up the subject of lining up a shot. Like Bob said, maybe it's just as good a place as any to have a beginner start. I had a BCA master instructor first point out to me that my set up was crooked but he didn't have a prescription for fixing it other than "Don't line up like that." That was 25 years ago, lol. Ironically, maybe I would have benefited from finding my magic vision center. On the other hand, others like Mark Wilson are pretty accomplished and they don't support the idea.
If Dave reads this maybe he will chime in on where he heard the idea. Who is that snooker instructor, Barry Hearn or something like that? I think he supports one of those blocks with a line on it that helps you align your sight, kind of like the vision center idea.
@Dan White
if where you put your head allows you to see straight and right/left cuts equally
isnt that your personal vision center?
is your nose angled to the shot line or parrallel?
i will assume its angled so the following is wrong if thats not true
is it possible your description of finding where the cue feels naturally cued in a straight line for your set up
just means you have found the correct line/angle of the cue for how your body works and your head position is still in your personal vision center?
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from dr dave
Your vision center is the head and eye alignment, relative to the cue, that allows you to see a center-ball, straight-in shot as straight, with the tip appearing to be at the center of the CB. For some people, this might be with the cue under their dominant eye (e.g., if they have strong eye dominance and/or vision impairment in the other eye). For others, it might be with the cue under their nose, or somewhere else between (or even outside of) their eyes. To be accurate and consistent with both straight-in and cut shots, you should always position your “vision center” over the desired aiming line for the shot. See shot sighting for more information (and other approaches).
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so dr dave doesnt say your vision center HAS to be near your dominant eye (even if it could be the most common place)
the fact that for you its near your non dominant eye doen not negate the concept of vision center
and again to me it seems you found YOUR PERSONAL VISION CENTER
i could be wrong
if where you put your head allows you to see straight and right/left cuts equally
isnt that your personal vision center?
is your nose angled to the shot line or parrallel?
i will assume its angled so the following is wrong if thats not true
is it possible your description of finding where the cue feels naturally cued in a straight line for your set up
just means you have found the correct line/angle of the cue for how your body works and your head position is still in your personal vision center?
..........................
from dr dave
How can I determine the head position and eye alignment necessary for me to have the best aiming accuracy and consistency?
Having your head aligned properly is the most important fundamental of pool. “How to Easily Find Your Vision Center” (BD, June, 2023) and “Aim, Align, Sight – Part II: Visual Alignment” (BD, July, 2011) covers this topic fairly well, as do the following videos, one from Vol. I of the Video Encyclopedia of Pool Practice (VEPP):Your vision center is the head and eye alignment, relative to the cue, that allows you to see a center-ball, straight-in shot as straight, with the tip appearing to be at the center of the CB. For some people, this might be with the cue under their dominant eye (e.g., if they have strong eye dominance and/or vision impairment in the other eye). For others, it might be with the cue under their nose, or somewhere else between (or even outside of) their eyes. To be accurate and consistent with both straight-in and cut shots, you should always position your “vision center” over the desired aiming line for the shot. See shot sighting for more information (and other approaches).
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so dr dave doesnt say your vision center HAS to be near your dominant eye (even if it could be the most common place)
the fact that for you its near your non dominant eye doen not negate the concept of vision center
and again to me it seems you found YOUR PERSONAL VISION CENTER
i could be wrong
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FWIWI I've never said much about dominant eye position relative to vision center.
If you define vision center as that place where you end up keeping your head then I guess I can't argue with that. Although that makes its definition so all-encompassing as to be useless. The actual definition seems to be where straight looks straight. Put another way, that block or bit of paper with the lines on it (that PJ and I were discussing) should have the lines match up if you are at your vision center. They don't line up for me, unless maybe if I close my left eye, so that cannot by my vision center. My criteria was more about symmetry in left and right cuts, ease of take-back and a couple more things along those lines.
Thanks for the reply dan
If the line thing is not where your head is when you see the cuts equal and ease of take back
Thats very intetesting
I hear you, but my conversations are:
You see how the shot looks perfectly straight?
Yes.
Now move your head laterally, first right . . . now left . . . with the head off to either side, this straight shot looks like a cut shot, yes?
Yes.
So your perception of the degree of angle on cut shots will likewise change, unless you have your head and eyes in the same place in your stance on cut shots. You'll see a 30-degree cut as 35 degrees, etc.
I'm not exactly clear on all of that. My recollection is that I wanted to find a head position where 1/2 ball cuts appeared the same cutting left or right. That position is not a vision center as defined.