Practice Without Help - Get Better?

vincett said:
So even with books and video to provide drills and so on, you still think having instructors are better?
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For me yes. I was taught the SPF stroking system. We did a video also.... watch the head come up, elbow/shoulder drop... not holding the backstroke. (The Pause). Was I following through? The course/lesson is about using a repeatable consistent stroke. Something to consider when not pocketing balls. Something to fall back on. I have friends that took lessons... never practiced and never improved. I have friends that shoot pretty good could play better with lessons(instructor). Have friends that could not hold a cue but definitely improved with an instructor. A player with a good solid instructor will definitely play better pool. Their level will change. The key is finding the right one. They are not created equal.
The fun never ends. Get the stroke together then work on strategy with an instructor. Anything that is practiced correctly will show improvement.
 
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Biloxi Boy said:
I made three periods of significant improvement. All of them involved having a great deal of time to play. One involved reading pool books. The other two involved a group of cohorts who played way above my level. In my opinion, there is no substitute for playing with excellent players who have a genuine interest in helping you improve. I never did the instructional video thing, but I watched a group of young cats at the pool hall who were deep into the videos and they seemed to learn a lot from them.

Sorry, but this is where I return to my lament over the death of old time pool halls. These places were truly "schools of pool". The players who habituated them were faculty with different specialties and varied approaches. One had to be fortunate enough to be accepted into the classes, but once you were admitted, you stayed enrolled as long as you kept your shit straight. Study Hall was always in session.

You can teach yourself some. People of equal skill can help each other to a certain extent. I am convinced, however, that a person of average ability can experience quantum improvement only by playing often with much better players. I can't understand how this will occur over a broad census without our pool halls. There will always be a place here and a place there, just as there will always be a few young giant killers coming up. As for the "rank and file", while I know how it once worked for us, I just can't imagine what happens next.
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It really helps to be able to watch, play, and maybe get the occasional tip from better players.

And I think that's why some rooms foster more players that play at higher levels. They're seeing it and competing against each other implementing what they've seen. When you're out in a room without good players who are at least willing to throw you a bone once in a while it's tough to improve.

I try to help players at my room, who I think will listen. A couple of weeks ago there was a well known instructor giving a big group thing. As I was leaving there was one guy who was doing something which I thought was egregiously wrong with his grip and I told him what to change and walked away. I saw him a couple of weeks later and he could not thank me enough, saying that tip had significantly improved his play.

I'm not saying anything other than based upon my years of experience I can sometimes help players. And I think, contrary to what others might think, most guys are willing to do that.

Lou Figueroa
 
Best is working individually. Group lessons are great for the instructor.
My first pool lesson was with a friend. That did not work out as we’re different levels. I took a group golf lesson once.. a series of 8. Quit after the second as there is no individual attention.
 
I learned a long time ago that making a shot meant the ball going in the hole AND the CB getting the angle on the next ball to get to the angle on the next ball. When practicing I would make a ball and if I missed my position I would do it over. For awhile I practiced with a group of guys playing 9 ball, no money, and if you made the ball but failed to get position, didn’t have to be perfect, on the next ball it was a foul. After a while of doing this we even called position fouls on bank shots. We progressed much faster than any of our friends and at the time we didn’t have lessons, books or videos that we used
 
tim913 said:
I learned a long time ago that making a shot meant the ball going in the hole AND the CB getting the angle on the next ball to get to the angle on the next ball. When practicing I would make a ball and if I missed my position I would do it over. For awhile I practiced with a group of guys playing 9 ball, no money, and if you made the ball but failed to get position, didn’t have to be perfect, on the next ball it was a foul. After a while of doing this we even called position fouls on bank shots. We progressed much faster than any of our friends and at the time we didn’t have lessons, books or videos that we used
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You had a stroke to begin with. And people eager to learn with you. That works. Are you happy with your game. Are you a run out shooter? Would you benefit from advanced lessons? Are you content for the moment?
 
hang-the-9 said:
... I know players that have played for a year that can almost break and run a table. ...
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Joe Batchelor was a player from around Mosconi's time. He started playing around 16 and within six months had run 100 balls at straight pool. Someone pointed out that he was probably playing eight or ten hours a day, but still.... He had the advantage of being in a place where he could have seen someone run a hundred every day. I think Allen Hopkins was not far behind that schedule.
 
+When I started playing pool it was mostly HAMB, for some reason pool was my thing. I mostly brute forced, put a lot of hours in.

After a few decades off I wanted to learn to play pool right when I came back. I had beaten some of the best in my early years so I'm not sure how much righter things were going to get but whatever. Not sure why I bought Li'l Joe Villilpando's first two DVD's, all that was out at the time.

I alternated between "WoW" and getting a little angry. For seventy dollars and five or six months dedicated effort a person could learn from those discs what took me around four years to learn banging balls.

Videoing yourself from multiple angles is much better than just hitting balls. An instructor is a step above video, assuming they are a good instructor. There were a couple of good instructors including Blackjack, David Sapolis I believe, who would review video sent to them very reasonably. Great guy, and a skilled instructor.

Aside from wasted hours, it is a lot cheaper to get some help than to try learning everything on your own. One issue, what people say they do and what they really do often isn't the same. Got to find the right instructor.

Hu
 
BarTableMan said:
You take an average league player (example 4 level APA) and have them practice for 4 hours a day for a year. They must do this on their own with NO outside help. No, books, no DVDs, no YouTube, no teachers, no more league matches, nothing. Does the player move up a level in skill? I say no. That person would simply do the same 4 level things over and over. Stroke the same and shoot the same choices without gaining skills.

I bring this up because I hear people all the time..."If I had a table at home, I'd be much better." NOPE. You need help from someone or something better than you to gain new knowledge.

(I probably own every pool book and every DVD around...but once I got an instructor to guide and "scold" me...then I got better. Just say'n.)

Thoughts...
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You're probably correct on the instructor thing but I don't have that luxury. The only way to learn around here is to practice with decent players and pick each other's brains. Fundamentals is the #1 thing you can get from an instructor. It still requires great work and effort, but once that foundation is laid practicing other aspects of the game comes easier.
 
BarTableMan said:
You take an average league player (example 4 level APA) and have them practice for 4 hours a day for a year. They must do this on their own with NO outside help. No, books, no DVDs, no YouTube, no teachers, no more league matches, nothing. Does the player move up a level in skill? I say no. That person would simply do the same 4 level things over and over. Stroke the same and shoot the same choices without gaining skills.

I bring this up because I hear people all the time..."If I had a table at home, I'd be much better." NOPE. You need help from someone or something better than you to gain new knowledge.

(I probably own every pool book and every DVD around...but once I got an instructor to guide and "scold" me...then I got better. Just say'n.)

Thoughts...
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That's true.
You cannot dish a good meal without the ingrediants.
Pratice all by yourself can help your stroke more consistent and get better feel on that table you practice with.
But the new gane strategies, such as route of cue ball, pocket selection, ball movement affected by the defferent humidity level, won't be involved or perceived if you play on your own.
You can practice alone, but you still need new information to enlarge your database to enhence the content of practice, it can be from trainer, book or internet.
After playing for over 40yrs, I found those kids with coaches easily have the same level of game concept as mine. All they need to do is spending time to practice and participate in the tournaments for perfection.
Then they will surpass the old asses, like me, within 2~3 years.
This is the way most Taiwanese pro-playeds had been through in their teenage for the past 3 decades.
 
BarTableMan said:
You take an average league player (example 4 level APA) and have them practice for 4 hours a day for a year. They must do this on their own with NO outside help. No, books, no DVDs, no YouTube, no teachers, no more league matches, nothing. Does the player move up a level in skill? I say no. That person would simply do the same 4 level things over and over. Stroke the same and shoot the same choices without gaining skills.

I bring this up because I hear people all the time..."If I had a table at home, I'd be much better." NOPE. You need help from someone or something better than you to gain new knowledge.

(I probably own every pool book and every DVD around...but once I got an instructor to guide and "scold" me...then I got better. Just say'n.)

Thoughts...
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Correct. Almost every tennis player and golfer has taken paid instruction, almost no pool players have.
 
BarTableMan said:
You take an average league player (example 4 level APA) and have them practice for 4 hours a day for a year. They must do this on their own with NO outside help. No, books, no DVDs, no YouTube, no teachers, no more league matches, nothing. Does the player move up a level in skill? I say no. That person would simply do the same 4 level things over and over. Stroke the same and shoot the same choices without gaining skills.

I bring this up because I hear people all the time..."If I had a table at home, I'd be much better." NOPE. You need help from someone or something better than you to gain new knowledge.

(I probably own every pool book and every DVD around...but once I got an instructor to guide and "scold" me...then I got better. Just say'n.)

Thoughts...
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Everyone's different in how they learn, process new information, etc... while I agree that most league players are social creatures looking to relieve the boredom of their 9 to 5, I can't agree that none would get better. I have seen more than one person get a table in their home and improve quite a bit in the course of a year of hard practice. I have also seen others who got a table and within 3 months, their wives were folding laundry on it, so... It comes down to self discipline, what you want and how bad you want it and the determination to succeed.
 
Mensabum said:
Everyone's different in how they learn, process new information, etc... while I agree that most league players are social creatures looking to relieve the boredom of their 9 to 5, I can't agree that none would get better. I have seen more than one person get a table in their home and improve quite a bit in the course of a year of hard practice. I have also seen others who got a table and within 3 months, their wives were folding laundry on it, so... It comes down to self discipline, what you want and how bad you want it and the determination to succeed.
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Totally agreed with this. I do have a friend who have got the table for years and practice without any additional materials, neither online nor DVD nor books, he just mindlessly practice and practice. He did improve quiet a bit after a year or so. However, I have also seen other friends who had table later but also sook out the materials and practices without instructors and improved hugely in the matter of months. It is all about how a person treat this hobby to be, his willingness and determination. That is really all there is to it.
 
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