Everyone can look. But only a few can see.

[straightline]

Quick question, by angles do you mean in degrees or something abstract?

 

[FranCrimi]

IIRC at the Pheasant Run, maybe Starchers event one year Archer ran(race to 13) the set from the flip. Busti jacked the bet, won the next st and Archer bailed. Pretty stout.

I was there also. I was trying to remember where it was. I thought maybe Binghamton at Gary Pinkowski's BC Open. I seem to recall the bet as $5000 and then Busti's backers upped it to $10,000 after Johnny ran out the first set. Johnny quit after losing the second set. We all couldn't believe it how Busti doubled the bet after Johnny ran out the set. Turns out it was the right move for him.

 

[bbb]

I was completely unaware of the existence of this diagram. Was there any additional explanatory text. Tell us the details where you found it and any other information you have.

I note that you stated that there was no mention of a "clock." Without utilizing this precise clock reference as I explained it, although the "info" is presented, at most, that is all it does. Agreed, it does present similar significant details and relationships. In this case, that is still quite a lot.

although there is no clock reference where on the ball the contacts are
they are clearly diagrammed both at the top and bottom arcs of the ball
this diagram is from dr dave's website and was from a diagram by @Patrick Johnson
here are a few more diagrams from dr dave's site which show clocks in the diagrams of cut angles
here is another one of @Patrick Johnson

and here is one from @oldschool1478 also mentioned on dr dave's site

you can go to dr dave's site to learn more about it

Note that from 12 Noon to 3 PM is not only 90 degrees. It is also 15 minutes and even more precisely, 900 seconds. Being able to reference degrees or time on the outer edge of the object ball allows for maximum possible precision in using the technique/tool I describe. In time, practicing using this technique/tool will evolve into feel. A feel easily and directly acquired using this clock method of determining the precise contact point. A feel that won't take 1000 repetitive practice shots.

as you can see above your idea is not novel
but all of these presuppose you know the correct angle first

If one were left with only the diagram above, yes, it is intriguing, more than that even. But to my mind, it suggests one would have to memorize the specific lines, angles and points and their relationships depicted to make use of them. There is no deeper exploration of the fundamental concept. What to do if the angles desired are not exactly as depicted? Obviously, you are only left with the option of making intuitive estimations. In other words, the diagram alone is "piecemeal." I hope I'm making sense.

The description I explain of how to determine the exact contact point can account for any and all contact points to achieve any cut angle. You do not have to memorize any specific lines, angles and points. You are free to clock reference any point on the outer edge of the object ball.

Our understanding can not only be determined by what we learn but also by how we learn. In this case, did you learn by the diagram first then by my explanation. Or did you learn from my explanation then by the diagram. Is there any concern to judge whether which or whose idea deserves more credibility and therefore merit? Remember, I posted this technique/tool as a "promo-tease."

I don't mean to be repetitive. Maybe I am splitting hairs?

Nevertheless, it is good to see that no one has disputed anything I described/explained/claimed regarding precisely determining any contact point. And no one has described a simpler more easily understood and versatile method as of yet.

Although it is not exactly the major slam dunk I had hoped for. I'll take a swish any day.

There is no question that there is information in this diagram that coincides with what I described/explained/claimed.

your descriptions so far dont give much help either

although using fractional aim points has been around for a long time and if you know the angle you can use them quite accurately

If you have nothing intelligent to share, maybe you should just take a time out and give it a rest.

i think i all my posts have been intelligent if you understood them

 

[bbb]

here is some more clock references from mohrt at billiards the game

 

[straightline]

That triangle reminds me of this bit. It's been decades since I've used ghost ball but here's the same thing in a triangle.
Half down half out.

Side View

 

[Mensabum]

More psychobabble than in 60's Haight-Asbury medical report. I like this 'SEEING' myself:

There was research done in the 60s and 70s about whether the Pineal gland had spatial awareness properties and whether or not people could access these.
The Pineal has often been referred to as what's called the "Third Eye".
Perhaps that's what the op was leading towards.
Personally, I like the horror movie about it better. Lol.

 

[Mensabum]

I would classify boredom as a subset of Gump's, "Stupid is as stupid does." If you're bored you should be doing something else.
Laziness could be attributed to a physical or mental condition. Otherwise it is Gump, again.
Just like there is a blind spot in vision, maybe a person could have any number of "blind spots" either physical or psychological. Brain wiring issues because of having formed bad habits or brain trauma. Or psychological / mental, for instance, a person plays pool to relax, like a mere pastime. Like me, I play pool to get to sleep. Hah. Or a player sees that his opponent is getting perhaps uncontrollably angry and the last time this happened with a different opponent in another pool hall it ended in a fight. And this opponent is a dangerous and possibly a little stupid looking person. Subconsciously you may want to miss. Shark bait. There are many reasons people fail or reach a plateau they can't overcome. Some are reasonably excused while others are not. Like Sax said, "You either got it or you don't." Don't have it? Then get serious and get it. No sob stories here.

Occult? I've thought about this. Some people put the "dog" on you either unintentionally or intending to. The idea of putting the dog on someone goes back thousands of years. When your opponent starts to sense you are about to beat them they expend energy, essentially cursing you or even wishing you dead. Yes, that extreme. Either they just feel the disaster approaching or from your very first shot in a match they want you dead. Either way, some people can feel this energetic tension and falter. Others sense it and are strong and stand up to it instinctively not even realizing it. But others take it in stride knowing what's up. They are down on a shot then get up snarl or even smile then get back down refocus then make the shot with position. Occult could be very real, maybe?

That's just Alphas responding to a betas attempts to be more than they are. 1%ers deal w this crap everyday. It ain't occult. It's dominance and response.

 

[Mensabum]

Marked this thread for reading because I thought I would be able to find some nuggets in it, but was bitterly disappointed.

From what I understand there is a difference between looking and seeing. In trapshooting, "looking" is basically what you call a soft focus, where before you call for the target you just look out into the field without seeing anything in sharp focus. When the target emerges, you change to a hard focus where you "see" only a part of the target and in theory the gun goes to what you are seeing.

I thought the OP was going to discuss something to the effect that "looking" is when you look at the whole object ball and "seeing" is when you identify the micro-dot (as Mark Wilson calls it) where you want to hit.

My interest is how do you identify that micro-dot even at an amateur level? I often see Gorst standing behind the OB and looking at the line to the pocket. I figure he is looking for the micro-dot, but he would walk back to the cue ball without keeping his eyes on the OB, so I am not sure how he is able to mark that dot. If this is something someone can explain, I would be very grateful. Of course, my thinking about what he is looking at could be entirely wrong.

Once he's seen the line to the pocket and marks it on the ob, he finds the other on the cue ball and completes the shot. The 2 line system works best for this and that's what he uses.
Top players are blessed w excellent vision and hand/eye, so this isn't difficult for them to recall the microdot. Once seen, it stays in memory. Esp since he's hamb can do it in his sleep.

 

[Mensabum]

I never mind giving advice. "Just give it a good hard whack, that always works for me."

Hu

Pokenhope.

 

[Mensabum]

I guess you are saying the same thing as straightline above. I am not yet at a point where I can recognize patterns quickly. I hope to get there someday.

I noticed that there is a general consensus that pool players are willing to give advice. I personally have not experienced that. When I started 5 years ago I got some advice. As I got better and started to be on par with some people they stopped playing against me and I have not been getting any help. I used to pay to put a guy in tournaments and he flat out told me that it took years for him to learn what he knows and he can't share his knowledge. I offered to pay a 630 Fargo for lessons and he made excuses that he does not coach. I heard him tell another person one day "why should I help him so that he can beat me one day." I am just a 478 Fargo right now mainly playing in Joss tournaments on 9 footers. Problem is that I shoot trap in the summer and don't have much time for pool. Anyway, I hope to find a good local coach one day.

That's just sad. I hope you find some different players to play with. Come to my area. We've moved away from that old school 'keep what you know' mentality, to a more sharing one. Helps everyone in the long run. Knowledge should be passed along. Not withheld. Good luck.

 

[Mensabum]

"using the understanding gained by major thinkers who have gone before in order to make intellectual progress". Wikipedia

Do communists enjoy eating crow?

We all stand on the shoulders of giants.

 

[Mensabum]

If everything about pool is known and if all the information is available either for free or paid then why the struggle?
Why is there a Fedor, Joshua, Shane, Eklent, Carlo, etc.?
Why are there not any AZBilliards forum members on this list as far as I know?
I gather that experts have all the answers.
So, any experts have excuses, oh, excuse me.
Any "reasons" to explain?
Any suggestions how to get any one here on that list?
Like I said, knowing what to do is not doing.
In the end, making the shot is about execution/performance.
I am sure all would agree that the pros use a process.
Repeatable and consistent to the highest degree humanly possible.
I guess any exact precise process is not known except among the "upper echelon" players.
There we go: secrets these processes obviously must be.
Assuming you have at least natural or correctable 20/20 vision so you can focus easily on the balls and table,
what are you looking at yet failing to SEE or imagine then visualize?
Is your brain not wired properly because of trauma, drug abuse, poor diet, lack of exercise, etc.
Are any of your senses not up to par, such as balance?
If you are within generally acceptable pool condition, you can be taught and efficiently learn and perform at a very high level.
It is not because of not enough practice.
You could say it is not enough good practice or the right practice.
These are generalities that offers nothing else.
So again, why are there not any AZBilliards forum members on this list that I am aware of?
This is what it is:
It is not practicing efficiently using the Ultimate SEEING and Execution techniques/tools/process on all aspects of your game at all times.
This is mildly intensive work requiring focus and paying the closest attention to detail.
You will have all the skills necessary to do this.
"paying the closest attention to detail" is a generality, as well, unless you have the techniques to make this happen.
I mentioned that some say you do not need an instructor. I would agree but their may be exceptions I can't think of.
Here is why:
Why do you need an instructor to tell you what he sees as your pool problems?
You can already see what they are for yourself.
If you can't then this is your problem:
You cannot see what you yourself are doing?
I find this hard to believe.
You can see your pool problems but don't know how to correct them?
Most if not all of your fundamental pool problems and their solutions are well documented on YouTube or on websites online for free.
But it is your choice to seek the aide of an instructor.

There are medical conditions
[Spectrum] whereby crowds and even tight fitting clothing affect certain people in very negative ways. Many have unintentional antisocial tendencies that don't bode well under lights. Without these handicaps, they're contenders. Period. Tournament environment is possibly the worst place they could find themselves. Viola... Road player.
He don't wanna be on no lists, no notoriety, quite the opposite in fact.
Just takes the money and leaves.

 

[Mensabum]

I see it all. I commit to memory, the object ball’s 0.5mm, horizontal/vertical cueball contact point and 180 degrees opposite object ball’s horizontal/vertical contact point to the pocket center.
Multiply vertical 0.5mm x the horizontal 0.5mm and you get 0.25mm squared.
That is the cueball contact point, which never changes from the imaginary straight line from the center of the object ball to the center of the target pocket.

That's the 2 line system. Best there is.

 

[Mensabum]

The general consensus in this thread is that its forum members believe in sharing their pool knowledge and techniques to help other players.
Here is a simple pool technique related question but a very important one.
Imagine an object ball and cue ball anywhere on the table.
You have decided which pocket you want to make the object ball in.
Question: how do you determine the exact contact point on the object ball where the cue ball and object ball meet to make the shot?
Constraints: the cue ball and object ball well off any rails. cue ball center ball hit with no english.
Looking for your simplest explanation for precise determination of any object ball's contact point with any cue ball.
Thank you, in advance.

Line from pocket thru ob.
Point on ob facing cb where line disects is ob contact point.
Line from pocket to cb.
Point on cb where line hits facing ob is cb contact point.
Put them together.
Easiest and best I've ever seen. Try it on table B4 disregarding.

 

[gregcantrall]

There are medical conditions
[Spectrum] whereby crowds and even tight fitting clothing affect certain people in very negative ways. Many have unintentional antisocial tendencies that don't bode well under lights. Without these handicaps, they're contenders. Period. Tournament environment is possibly the worst place they could find themselves. Viola... Road player.
He don't wanna be on no lists, no notoriety, quite the opposite in fact.
Just takes the money and leaves.

Moe Norman!
Can't remember where I read his biography but quite a unique and interesting man.

 

[VVP]

Line from pocket thru ob.
Point on ob facing cb where line disects is ob contact point.
Line from pocket to cb.
Point on cb where line hits facing ob is cb contact point.
Put them together.
Easiest and best I've ever seen. Try it on table B4 disregarding.

Does this work regardless of the speed you hit the CB and what about accounting for throw effects?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Does this work regardless of the speed you hit the CB and what about accounting for throw effects?

Adjust the contact point for whatever you do to the CB.

pj
chgo

 

[ShootingArts]

Adjust the contact point for whatever you do to the CB.

pj
chgo

Perhaps the main difference between an OK player and a monster is just knowing those adjustments.

Hu

 

[lfigueroa]

No, I am not aware of this "tome."

How many others in this forum are?

Pool is not so complicated as to warrant 574 pages. Not even close. My description only took at most 3 short paragraphs. Probably could have deleted the enter key returns for spacing and just had 1 short single paragraph. What more could you possibly need to nail down the contact point once you know the angle you seek.

I pity you if you actually took the time to suffer reading through it.

Waving this "tome" as if it contains all the secrets of pool is not proof. You tell us what he says by quoting from his tome on pool about locating the precise contact point once the angle has been decided upon. It most certainly must be clearly simply explained somewhere within 574 pages. If you don't want to make the effort I don't blame you. I sure as hell wouldn't.

Not only do I pity you having to have read through it, I pity Shane, Joshua, Efren, Earl, and all the other pros carrying around such a heavy tome in their brains. It must all be in there. They must know it all. How can they even have the strength left to stroke the cue.

I don't know how many others, I have some relatively obscure books in my collection.

And you can turn off the lights on your pity party. I bought it as a curiosity to add to my collection and only thumbed through it because I don't use an aiming system to shoot pool. I'm more the: wad up a piece of paper and throw it in the trash can 10 feet away kind of a guy.

Lou Figueroa
pity, pity, pity, lol

 

[lfigueroa]

Is that actually you in your profile picture? Were you a regular tournament player at Hard Times Bellflower? I think I only entered in one or at most 2 of those tournaments. I actually remember maybe playing you in one once. It was on the other side of the wall, not on the pro tables. You won the match, of course. I couldn't play a lick. But you did comment saying, "That was a good run out." You may not believe this or understand that I had completely blacked out during that run. When you said that, I thought about it and simply could not remember any of it. To this day I cannot make heads of tails of it. When I make this promo video you may recognize me. I've been through a lot as most of us have getting older. Anyway, I'll look forward to meeting you again. You always struck me as being a really nice guy.

Yes, that's me -- I believe that photo was taken at the US Open One Pocket in Vegas several years back during my match with Alex Pagulayan.

And no, though I've played many folks at Hard Times I was never there for a tournament, always just passin' through.

Lou Figueroa
still a nice guy