probably true. Still rockets and gravity will kill if given half a chance; which brings us to the methodical management of the process. That part is vital to anything working at all.
Everyone can look. But only a few can see.
- Thread starter jjohnson
- Start date
I had to make a significant edit. I changed "80 percent failure rate." to "80 percent success rate."
And "Or, 90% failure rate." to Or, 10% success rate."
Go back to the OP at the bottom of page 9 and see.
Or better yet, here it is corrected:
Here is something to think about: let's say you are an engineer. For example, you are engineering the proximity fuse just before WWII. This fuse has about ten components. If any one of them fails, the munition fails. So, let's say each component has an 80 percent success rate. What are your chances of producing a usable fuse? You multiply 0.8^10 = 0.10. Or, 10% success rate. There is no use mass producing such a fuse.
Try 0.9^10 = 0.35. Much better but still a bust. Try 0.95^10 = 0.6. We're getting somewhere. But no. Even 0.99^10 = 0.90 is problematic but good enough to mass produce.
Keeping in mind how many steps, variables, or degrees of freedom are involved in executing a pool shot, any imperfections in your technique can and probably will be disastrous.
Sorry about that.
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The methodical management went to hell in the cold war.
NASA was a lot like a man trying to set a land speed record on the beach at Daytona. Shortly before the run he did a little testing. Spun up a tire and wheel in the lab, got behind a huge I-beam and shot it! The destruction was nothing short of amazing. He concluded that if he blew a tire he was dead.
This didn't prevent him from doing large showy broadsliding stops at the end of his practice runs. He blew a tire going for the record. In something too corny for Hollywood, his body rolled to a stop almost at his wife's feet. As he predicted, he didn't stay in the car and the crash killed him.
I didn't stay in the car when I barrel rolled one either. 428SCJ on the street, rolled a tire off a rim, hit a storm drain going sideways. I had a flash when my head was about five or six feet in the air, my body was above it. Close to two hundred feet in front of me the car was upside down about five feet in the air too. I landed alongside the car! Needless to say my luck was a bit better. A few small cuts scrapes and bruises and my forearm looked like Popeye's for a few months. I walked away happy. Never did like that car anyway.
Hu
Enjoyable read.
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
To me this is too much. Determining a cut angle is a skill. I say this as a guy who is an inspector at his day job. 1 degree off over 9' is about 1.9" off target. 1 degree at 4' is .8" (19mm!) off. Eyeballing an angle is not precise. A 15 degree might actually be an 16 degree and you missed... unless your subconscious (though practice) made up for the difference.
No one, and I mean no one is accurately calculating angles to the degree. Even 5 degrees is a bit of a stretch for most. Whatever you "calculated" means very little, because it's not accurate anyway. Aiming systems help you feel confident, and that's ok... But like anything unless you actually practice them and hit balls the knowledge has limited usefulness. They get you in the ballpark and help to quantify results.
I've been aware of the technique and many others. When the rubber meets the road, it's too much shit floating around in your head. If you can't look at the line from the OB to the pocket/target and shoot it, you need more practice. Much more practice. Enough practice until you're no longer thinking about aiming systems. Aiming methods do have legitimacy but good lord who needs all that floating around in their head at any given time? I guess as long as you keep your mind clear in the execution phase it would be alright, but it's a lot of extra calculations that aren't really needed, and are doubtfully accurate in the first place.
As I have said, too many times no doubt, I plan my inning before the first shot. I would probably need time on a supercomputer to calculate degrees much less minutes and seconds for all shots. When the person claiming to use these measurements doesn't know how many minutes are in a degree or how many seconds in a minute, well their credibility wasn't too good already.
The best thing to do is to rely on our unconscious. Trusting it, I have done crazy accurate things. Trying to sidestep it, not much good happens.
Hu
I think it might be better for some people to have an inaccurate system so their subconscious has to take control for them to make a ball. They can do all the calculations they want and in the end their arm makes the shot in spite of the noise upstairs.
Your data is interesting.
I would look at it this way:
there are actually 6 targets: eye alignment, cue stick alignment, a true stroke, the cue ball strike point, the ghost ball/object ball contact point, and the pocket (center)
Because the pocket opening is usually about 4.5" there is some leeway.
The object ball could even glance off a rail on its way to the pocket and still go in.
But even at that, the object ball could hit a pocket point or bobble between the pocket jaws and not go in.
Even an intuitive player still has to contend with each and all of these variables one way or another.
Not using US&E that is intended to give you a precise set of techniques/tools that will eventually lead to an intuitive pool game,
will only result in achieving a less intuitive pool game.
If you look at the Apollo/Saturn5 vehicle as a whole they actually had a ridiculously low failure rate. The F1 main engines never failed them. Those things made 1.5MILLION pounds of thrust each while consuming about 675gallons of fuel/oxidizer PER SECOND. Insane. Those engineers/builders were geniuses.
We are talking about NASA and pool, lo and behold, an article about NASA and a mission they compare to pool!
Spoiler Alert: They Miscued.
Hu
studyfinds.org
Spoiler Alert: They Miscued.
Hu
NASA's asteroid-smashing mission has permanently knocked a moon off its orbit
NASA's DART mission didn't just slam into the asteroid moon Dimorphos in 2022, it didn't just leave a dent - it completely reshaped the celestial body and potentially set it on a chaotic new path.
studyfinds.org
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
Definitely agree. I feel that some distract themselves enough with math and busy work in order to shut their head up from sabotage. It's important to not be ignorant and understand things, geometry, angles, table tracks etc but at some point with enough practice you only need to calculate things if they are an oddity on the table. Honestly if you've played the game seriously and watched what happens to the balls, practiced routes in and out of the corners/off the rails with the CB then you just kind of know. You no longer necessarily need a system to have pinpoint accuracy with where the CB hits a rail and ends up.
I think the math and systems are great while you're learning, but after a while of dedicated practice you really shouldn't need to calculate much, you get a feel for it and can weave the CB in between blockers and such.
What's US&E?
I'm not saying systems are bad. I'm saying they are kind of like training wheels. Once you master riding a bike you don't need them anymore, you shift your weight and pump your legs and keep the bike upright. My goal when learning the math and systems is to watch the CB and not have to use them in the future. Learn them to the point you can forget them. With careful observation systems and math can become feel without having to calculate things.
Systems are great for learning, but once they are learned you shouldn't have to constantly calculate them. One can get so spun out on them that you neglect other areas of the game, I was once that guy. Learn the systems for sure, but watch every shot with a keen eye and feel what went on. This trains your subconscious for the feel of the shot and soon you will be nailing angles and getting shape and no longer have to decide if it's a 15 degree cut, a quarter ball, if the second diamond connects to the 3rd diamond coming out of the corner or whatever. At some point it should be obvious what the CB is going to do. If it's not then keep practicing until it is, but above all, closely watch the ball and get a feel for it. Become the CB, extend your body awareness to the stick and even the cue ball.
If a westerner uses chop sticks it takes some work... but once you're onto them with practice or born into a culture that uses them, you forget they are there. You don't have to think about how to hold your hand or pinch or whatever, you just put food in your mouth. You don't have to calculate things to get an accurate CB path, though there's no shame in falling back on a system with a particularly odd shot. If I need to calculate things I try to remember the shot for practice time to actually get it programmed into my subconscious.
It's good to not be ignorant. It's good to know the systems and learn them. At a certain point you should be able to look at something and make it happen without calculating everything to the gnat's ass. If not there's no shame in practicing that system until you can. We're all different so if this doesn't apply to your game then forget I even mentioned it. Pool isn't one size fit's all. A good instructor often has a half a dozen ways of explaining a concept for this reason.
"What's US&E?"
Ultimate SEEING and Execution, a process of techniques/tools for pool instruction in nearly completed development most likely in video form still a couple of months away from becoming available.
"...but after a while of dedicated practice you really shouldn't need to calculate much, you get a feel for it..."
I am glad you agree with me. This is the ultimate goal of US&E: to reach a high level of intuitive play.
"Systems are great for learning, but once they are learned you shouldn't have to constantly calculate them."
Agreed. I've never even suggested that you will be forever required to consciously use the US&E processes during practice or play. Once your game becomes intuitive after learning with US&E, that's how you play, intuitively, as much as possible.
"...no shame in falling back on a system..."
That is also what I said regarding if you find yourself in a slump. Go back to fundamentals. Go back to US&E and shoot a couple of shots to get back on track.
Seems like you are having a discussion with yourself.
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
Well, it seems like you have your head on straight. Good luck with US&E. You'll probably experience a ton of naysayers. Not all of them are against you but some are. Many of them just want to be sure you're not just another charlatan, and a few that say nay are charlatans themselves, trying to weed out the competition. I just like to pick a guy's brain for a bit to get an idea of what they are about. It seems like your heart is in the right place.
Many who are starting out in their pool journey could use a helping hand up. Good info and methodology will help many get going on their pool journey. I look forward to viewing your system with an open mind.
My comment from another thread in this forum that is pertinent to this discussion that I think important to share:
I use the word "focus" to mean concentration. Not as in focusing of the eyes as in vision. When you are practicing or in a match, even if you are not in the process of shooting a pool shot, your entire focus or your entire being should be/must be surrounded by and within your intent to play as perfect a game of pool as you possibly can. It must be a state of being that has consumed your soul, so to speak. All benefits from the game that are possible at least become available. You are not somewhere else. You have perfect presence at every moment in time. Anything else is a loss of focus, more so or less so.
I use the word "focus" to mean concentration. Not as in focusing of the eyes as in vision. When you are practicing or in a match, even if you are not in the process of shooting a pool shot, your entire focus or your entire being should be/must be surrounded by and within your intent to play as perfect a game of pool as you possibly can. It must be a state of being that has consumed your soul, so to speak. All benefits from the game that are possible at least become available. You are not somewhere else. You have perfect presence at every moment in time. Anything else is a loss of focus, more so or less so.
I just remembered what pool players call it: being in the "zone."
boogieman said,
"To me this is too much..."
"No one, and I mean no one is accurately calculating angles to the degree."
ShootingArts said,
"The best thing to do is to rely on our unconscious. Trusting it, I have done crazy accurate things. Trying to sidestep it, not much good happens."
Bob Jewett said,
"I think it might be better for some people to have an inaccurate system so their subconscious has to take control for them to make a ball." Are you a comedian? You should take this act on the road to the Laugh Factory.
Let me name four top players and give you a link to a YouTube video where you can see one in action. Alex Pagulayan, Buddy Hall, Kim Davenport, and Carlo Biado. I could go on and on. Just watch them examine, approach, get down and adjust then shoot. They are total calculating machines following a process on every single shot. They are not crazy enough to risk a match trusting their subconscious. They are in total control. Yet they often make it look nearly effortless. Don't be ridiculous.
It is only a small leap to recommend prayer. Ya think?
Like I've been saying: Everyone can look. But only a few can see.
"To me this is too much..."
"No one, and I mean no one is accurately calculating angles to the degree."
ShootingArts said,
"The best thing to do is to rely on our unconscious. Trusting it, I have done crazy accurate things. Trying to sidestep it, not much good happens."
Bob Jewett said,
"I think it might be better for some people to have an inaccurate system so their subconscious has to take control for them to make a ball." Are you a comedian? You should take this act on the road to the Laugh Factory.
Let me name four top players and give you a link to a YouTube video where you can see one in action. Alex Pagulayan, Buddy Hall, Kim Davenport, and Carlo Biado. I could go on and on. Just watch them examine, approach, get down and adjust then shoot. They are total calculating machines following a process on every single shot. They are not crazy enough to risk a match trusting their subconscious. They are in total control. Yet they often make it look nearly effortless. Don't be ridiculous.
It is only a small leap to recommend prayer. Ya think?
Like I've been saying: Everyone can look. But only a few can see.
Duh. So you have noticed pool?
They are calculating something, it's just not what you think it is.
Question is, what might that be? When a professional pool player looks, what does he see?
If you ever figure that out, that's when you might become a pool player.
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
They have practiced until it is rote. Yes they are calculating but they have owned the process, they are probably no longer thinking "oh it's a 15 degree cut." They SEE the shot. They feel the shot. The shot is secondary. SEE-ing is developed through careful practice and observation, not stringing a bunch of aiming systems through their thought process in every moment. They've practiced them until the systems become so much a part of them they don't need to think about them consciously. This is the end goal to any system: KNOW them intimately enough so you don't have to think about them and burn up valuable resources in calculating them. Not head knowledge but practiced until absolutely rote.
Can they think about them consciously in times of doubt? Certainly, but at a certain point the connections are formed and you don't have to try to muscle reality with your ego. It sounds woo woo but once you become one with the process you don't have to think much. If you're analyzing if a shot is a 10 degree cut or a 15 degree cut you honestly still need more time on the practice table until it becomes rote. It's a process and there's no shame in actively figuring stuff when learning but at some point you don't need to think specific angles and all shots begin to feel the same.
Let me rephrase this so it's more concise: The pros are telling the CB where to go with close to pinpoint accuracy but there isn't a bunch of math and fractions going through their mind. They've offloaded that aspect from working memory to rote/muscle memory/subconscious. Once you learn to use chopsticks you don't have to think about the mechanics anymore.
I'm not saying you don't have to think/plan/strategize. Planning is better spent on patterns and shape rather than deciding if it's a 30 or 40 degree cut. If you watch Alex when he's using his cue as a tool he's not aiming. The OB going into the pocket is a given. He's looking where the tangent line goes for shape and where he wants the CB to be for the next shot. He's planning yes, but there isn't math and diamond numbers/fractions/etc going through his head. He's played enough so that he has a feel for it. It's a bit naive to think the pros are using systems on every shot when they aren't. Now if they have to do some complicated 4 rail shot then the likelihood they are using diamond numbers goes up, but it's still not a given that they are using something they have to calculate. They know how the balls behave and where they will hit the next rail without math. Can they do the math? Certainly. Are they doing it? Doubtful, it becomes feel at a certain proficiency level.
Alex was also super young in that match. Watch him now after years of experience and you won't see him using his cue on the table as much anymore. He still uses it as a tool at times but not every shot. Many shots and position routes have become rote at this point. The things he had to think about more when less experienced no longer take up the bandwidth they used to. He still uses his stick as a tool when he needs to though, but again, far less often.
If top players put the effort into every shot that you think they do a C player could beat them after they had played a few hours simply from mental exhaustion.
I found the opposite to be true. When a shot needs a lot of attention you give that attention to that shot. I don't give a tap in the same attention I give a multi-rail kick or bank. The pro's don't either. Then when the energy is needed to make a shot it is there.
Can you walk into the kitchen, select a glass, and get yourself a glass of water? You have just executed a far more demanding task than most pool shots! How much thought did you give it? A moment to grab your favorite glass or maybe even that was without thought.
Hu