Everyone can look. But only a few can see.

VVP said:
Does this work regardless of the speed you hit the CB and what about accounting for throw effects?
Click to expand...
Yes it does. The longer you work this, the more you can fine tune the part of the pocket you wish to hit. Works with all speeds and English as well. Ala those 2 contact points meet, the rest is history.
Do a trial run. If you don't find it to be the easiest and simplest, take what you can use and leave the rest.
 
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lfigueroa said:
BTW, since we're talking about obscure tomes and all this stuff here's a favorite from my collection: Richard Kranicki's "Answers to a Pool Player's Prayers."

It goes from aiming methods; to light reflections; to eye, head, and toe alignment; lots of stuff on eye calibration; dominant eye; CB aiming points; and cue tip compensation.

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...
When was that written Lou??
 
boogieman said:
To me this is too much. Determining a cut angle is a skill. I say this as a guy who is an inspector at his day job. 1 degree off over 9' is about 1.9" off target. 1 degree at 4' is .8" (19mm!) off. Eyeballing an angle is not precise. A 15 degree might actually be an 16 degree and you missed... unless your subconscious (though practice) made up for the difference.

No one, and I mean no one is accurately calculating angles to the degree. Even 5 degrees is a bit of a stretch for most. Whatever you "calculated" means very little, because it's not accurate anyway. Aiming systems help you feel confident, and that's ok... But like anything unless you actually practice them and hit balls the knowledge has limited usefulness. They get you in the ballpark and help to quantify results.

I've been aware of the technique and many others. When the rubber meets the road, it's too much shit floating around in your head. If you can't look at the line from the OB to the pocket/target and shoot it, you need more practice. Much more practice. Enough practice until you're no longer thinking about aiming systems. Aiming methods do have legitimacy but good lord who needs all that floating around in their head at any given time? I guess as long as you keep your mind clear in the execution phase it would be alright, but it's a lot of extra calculations that aren't really needed, and are doubtfully accurate in the first place.
Click to expand...
Aiming systems are for mostly new and mid level players still unsure of their shot lines. Pros may check a line, but there's no aiming system floating around in their heads. You move beyond those as skill develops. Or you should.😉
 
boogieman said:
Definitely agree. I feel that some distract themselves enough with math and busy work in order to shut their head up from sabotage. It's important to not be ignorant and understand things, geometry, angles, table tracks etc but at some point with enough practice you only need to calculate things if they are an oddity on the table. Honestly if you've played the game seriously and watched what happens to the balls, practiced routes in and out of the corners/off the rails with the CB then you just kind of know. You no longer necessarily need a system to have pinpoint accuracy with where the CB hits a rail and ends up.

I think the math and systems are great while you're learning, but after a while of dedicated practice you really shouldn't need to calculate much, you get a feel for it and can weave the CB in between blockers and such.


What's US&E?

I'm not saying systems are bad. I'm saying they are kind of like training wheels. Once you master riding a bike you don't need them anymore, you shift your weight and pump your legs and keep the bike upright. My goal when learning the math and systems is to watch the CB and not have to use them in the future. Learn them to the point you can forget them. With careful observation systems and math can become feel without having to calculate things.

Systems are great for learning, but once they are learned you shouldn't have to constantly calculate them. One can get so spun out on them that you neglect other areas of the game, I was once that guy. Learn the systems for sure, but watch every shot with a keen eye and feel what went on. This trains your subconscious for the feel of the shot and soon you will be nailing angles and getting shape and no longer have to decide if it's a 15 degree cut, a quarter ball, if the second diamond connects to the 3rd diamond coming out of the corner or whatever. At some point it should be obvious what the CB is going to do. If it's not then keep practicing until it is, but above all, closely watch the ball and get a feel for it. Become the CB, extend your body awareness to the stick and even the cue ball.

If a westerner uses chop sticks it takes some work... but once you're onto them with practice or born into a culture that uses them, you forget they are there. You don't have to think about how to hold your hand or pinch or whatever, you just put food in your mouth. You don't have to calculate things to get an accurate CB path, though there's no shame in falling back on a system with a particularly odd shot. If I need to calculate things I try to remember the shot for practice time to actually get it programmed into my subconscious.

It's good to not be ignorant. It's good to know the systems and learn them. At a certain point you should be able to look at something and make it happen without calculating everything to the gnat's ass. If not there's no shame in practicing that system until you can. We're all different so if this doesn't apply to your game then forget I even mentioned it. Pool isn't one size fit's all. A good instructor often has a half a dozen ways of explaining a concept for this reason.
Click to expand...
Well said.
 
ShootingArts said:
As I have said, too many times no doubt, I plan my inning before the first shot. I would probably need time on a supercomputer to calculate degrees much less minutes and seconds for all shots. When the person claiming to use these measurements doesn't know how many minutes are in a degree or how many seconds in a minute, well their credibility wasn't too good already.

The best thing to do is to rely on our unconscious. Trusting it, I have done crazy accurate things. Trying to sidestep it, not much good happens.

Hu
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That's the secret right there Hu!! I can't believe you just gave it away!!
I'll send you a royalty quarter.😁
 
Mensabum said:
Line from pocket thru ob.
Point on ob facing cb where line disects is ob contact point.
Line from pocket to cb.
Point on cb where line hits facing ob is cb contact point.
Put them together.
Easiest and best I've ever seen. Try it on table B4 disregarding.
Click to expand...
This is a geometrically incorrect version of the "parallel lines" method. You can learn to "adjust" what you see to make it work, but I'd rather use the one that doesn't need that complication:

billiards.colostate.edu

Contact-Point-to-Contact-Point and Parallel-Lines Aiming Systems - Dr. Dave Pool Info

Answers to frequently-asked questions about the contact-point-to-contact-point and parallel-lines aiming systems.
billiards.colostate.edu billiards.colostate.edu

pj
chgo
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
This is a geometrically incorrect version of the "parallel lines" method. You can learn to "adjust" what you see to make it work, but I'd rather use the one that doesn't need that complication:

billiards.colostate.edu

Contact-Point-to-Contact-Point and Parallel-Lines Aiming Systems - Dr. Dave Pool Info

Answers to frequently-asked questions about the contact-point-to-contact-point and parallel-lines aiming systems.
billiards.colostate.edu billiards.colostate.edu

pj
chgo
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Sorry, but you're incorrect. I'm not gonna get into all this crap again. For those of you who like it, use it. I'm done. Haven't used an aiming system in 30 years. This stuff makes my head hurt.
 
xradarx said:
Very little to process.
You have lost the possibility of impressing the audience that you sought/see(k)
No matter if you see
No matter how you see
You cannot execute.
The gang has already changed your Original Post, about forty times forcing you to play ‘ketchup’
Perfection is unattainable, by the way.
Stopped that pursuit 60 years ago.
Click to expand...
"The gang has already changed your Original Post, about forty times forcing you to play ‘ketchup’"
Prove it with examples then.
Should be easy to prove: about 40 times?
I don't play catch up.
I delve deeper through thick skulls hopefully to enlighten that nebulous "subconscious" lurking within.

There were many contenders above to choose from.
I chose yours basically at random since they were, unfortunately, all reaching for understanding and/or expression but unable to grasp.

"Perfection is unattainable, by the way." Talk about pulling a comment randomly out of a hat.
Perfection is a goal.
Defeatist. Now that is attainable.
Say your profound words of wisdom to Efren or Shane, etc. if you have the balls to confront them with it.

And boogieman continues to tread on well worn paths.
Why, boogieman, do you insist that I am suggesting forever going through each and every step in the learning process of US&E techniques/tools one by one and never attaining some degree of intuitiveness. Have you made such a claim about any other pool instruction? Answer this: why not? After all, any and all instruction is still a step by step process.

You set up a false premise about what US&E is then argue in support of that false premise. Maybe so you can impress us with your "insight?" Did you sign on to this forum and choose this thread to join this gang to express your "voice" so as to establish some semblance of credibility? Or is it that you just needed to make some friends? May your wish be granted. (Are you even a member of this forum? Gold, Silver, even a registered member?)

Lots of contenders for the top spot on the AZBilliards list of famous quotes.

Any one of you or all of you should be on the cover of any instructional Pool for Dummies book.

I could continue throwing water on the flamers but I'd rather make my point.
Because I'm feeling rather generous.
As generous as Samson dispatching a gang of Philistines with the jaw bone of an ass.
And yes, xradarx, your "gang" is a fitting description.

I apologize for having gotten riled up.

"They are calculating something, it's just not what you think it is," said sparkle84

When it comes to shot execution parameters, as I contend, the pros are thinking about exactly everything you are thinking about or should be thinking about, when playing pool: "... eye alignment, cue stick alignment, a true stroke, the cue ball strike point, the ghost ball/object ball contact point, and the pocket (center.) Etc.

Okay, one of you tell us what "thinking" about the execution of a shot is and how it relates to intuition. What is it?

Let me go first.

At it grossest level, the thinking that goes on during the execution of a pool shot is like talking to oneself. "I need to do this to visualize the shot line, then I have to do this to align the cue stick, then I have to stroke up to align the stroke, then I have to focus on how hard to shoot the shot...," etc. More of less. You are going down a verbal checklist. If this checklist were holes of different shapes, you would be looking for the right shaped peg, finding it, then finding the corresponding hole then placing the correct peg in the hole that only that peg would fit in. Each hole is a checkbox in this pool shot execution checklist analogy.

Keeping the analogy, eventually, after many repetitions, you no longer mentally verbalize checking off the shot checklist. You just look for the right shaped peg, find it, then find the right hole, then place the peg in the correct hole without saying a word. But you are still following a checklist. The advantage is that since one tends to mentally verbalize at the same rate as actually talking, you can now go down the checklist a little faster.

After many more repetitions, you have visualized the process. The checklist has become a mental construct. You no longer have to look, find, and pick the pegs or holes. They are already at hand. You just have to make sure you place each peg in the correct hole.

After many more repetitions, you have developed associations of holes and pegs. You no longer have to find the correct holes for each peg. You can simply place the pegs in their correct hole.

Recognize how much faster everything is becoming.

After many more repetitions, like gravity, you impose an attractive force on the problem posed by the shot. Each peg moves toward then falls into the correct hole like water flowing down hill then filling a glass.

Next, the checklist has been reduced to a memory. You see the shot, recall the memory, and shoot. Nevertheless, the shot memory is only the most efficient storage of the shot checklist. You are still executing the shot just like before when you verbalized it but you are doing so in the most efficient manner possible. And very fast.

Yet the player must still consciously be in control insuring that the memory and the steps, regardless of how efficient they are, are being followed meticulously.

Finally, he/she creates a feeling associated with recalling a memory correctly. He/she is not just letting some mysterious nebulous subconscious entity take control of their body. They feel it is right only when it is right because they have created or set it up to work this way. And it happens this way because at the final stage of the learning process, when successful, the individual feels good. This feeling happens as the result of chemicals being released into the brain and body. We, people, humans do this willfully. We may think of it as a reaction but it is an action people make happen. It is primordial. It is part of the survival mechanism. Those things that are good for us, help/insure our survival, mostly, make us feel good. That is why we pursue them so vigorously, greedily, lustfully even.

"You can't see what I'm doing but you know I'm doing something."
Still.

I rest my case.
 
To most of your delights, I am going to retire from this forum for, perhaps, quite awhile.

Anyway, as you probably were aware, it takes precious time to produce numerous and often times rather lengthy comments.
If you did take the time to read them, you mostly always learn something of value.

This is my last thought I will leave you with...

I define eating crow this way:

If you hate the thought of Ultimate SEEING and Execution.
Have sworn to yourself that it is nothing more than a lot of BS hooey snake oil: Fine.
When US&E becomes available you may find the thought intriguing.
But don't be tempted.
Avoid it at all costs.
Don't let your curiosity get the better of you.
You've been warned.
But if you do give in and find it worthwhile
Make sure you bring a knife and fork
and a big napkin to tuck under your chin
because it will be All You Can EAT Crow!
And you will never ever forget that meal.
 
Word of advice.
Well couple words - maybe woids.

Not that pool is a tourist attraction but you could hold a [ The Look Of Mastery ] guided pool tour.
Because (as if that needs clarifying) so far you seem to be selling 'the look' of mastery.
 
jjohnson said:
And boogieman continues to tread on well worn paths.
Why, boogieman, do you insist that I am suggesting forever going through each and every step in the learning process of US&E techniques/tools one by one and never attaining some degree of intuitiveness. Have you made such a claim about any other pool instruction? Answer this: why not? After all, any and all instruction is still a step by step process.

You set up a false premise about what US&E is then argue in support of that false premise. Maybe so you can impress us with your "insight?" Did you sign on to this forum and choose this thread to join this gang to express your "voice" so as to establish some semblance of credibility? Or is it that you just needed to make some friends? May your wish be granted. (Are you even a member of this forum? Gold, Silver, even a registered member?)
Click to expand...
I do it for the accolades obviously... I have and desire zero "credibility," I'm just a pool player. This is one of the few places you can talk about pool. You make claims then give us nothing but a clock face and we're 12 pages deep. Why did you sign up for this forum? To see how long you could string on the gullible without producing anything of substance? To show us your method you came up with that has been in circulation for decades?
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: Oh my sides!

I really don't get where you're coming from on this. I've not said your methods were wrong. I've not made any premise about US&E. You've told us absolutely jack shit about it other than a clock system for aiming, which is entirely underwhelming. You claim to bring people to ultimate SEEING, but if you're starting with an aiming system, just who is your audience? Maybe a ripe beginner, but you really expect anyone who has played for a few years to buy this drivel? We know how to aim. We want to know how to SEE. Tell us how to SEE. You've stumbled upon a great thing yet you talk about some obscure aiming system that has what exactly to do with SEEing? I've stated systems can work but they are not the end goal. If I take a wild ass guess I'd say you might agree with this?

I do believe you are misguided on your assessment of the pros. They are where they are because of dedication, not some aiming system or highly calculating brain. Very few pros do things the same as other pros. SEEING is achievable through many avenues, but they all require dedication. Do you agree with this?

The pros aren't following some obscure path to become what they are... not following some "secret" knowledge. They usually laugh at the systems. The systems are for beginners. I'm not saying systems are bad. The pros obviously know how the balls behave, but so can almost anyone with dedication. Practice 8 hours a day, forge yourself in competition, action, tournaments, etc. and many can become pro.

The pros aren't calculating half of what you think they are. Do they know the stuff? Certainly. I really have no "gripes" with what you're selling, in fact I'm interested. Yet you keep acting like I'm beating a dead horse. Maybe I am... but you keep sticking to your guns that the pros have some secret. I don't think they do. If you immerse yourself into an activity to the point of mastery it's to be expected that you get to be a master. Most of us mere mortals don't have that drive. We have excuses, families, jobs, etc.

Again, I have no idea why you are taking such an exception to the things I'm posting. I'm not saying your system isn't legit. I'm saying that it won't turn anyone into a better player overnight. I think we agree on this?

I can hardly wait for your next response of how I'm tiptoeing through the tulips instead of you actually letting us in on what the hell US&E is, or actually addressing anything I've asked. I mean, of course you don't have to, but what are you selling? An aiming system based on a clock? I'm sure we need another one of those. That's the only thing of substance you've produced. I thought we might finally SEE someone who had a good process on getting people past the basic system bullshit, but the longer this drivel goes on without substance the more unlikely it becomes.

Better yet, why don't you log off and come back when you have something of substance to show us? Listening to you pontificate on essentially nothing has been fun but it's past the point of getting old. It's hard to SEE the forest for all the trees. I enjoyed the discussion but I guess I'll mark you down as another time waster. I do legitimately hope that you come up with something at least interesting but at this rate I'm starting to get very skeptical.

I'll gladly eat crow if you produce something. It's why I've responded many times. I want to SEE something and it seems like you are on the right path. If I didn't SEE some potential I would have never responded to your thread. Good luck, again I honestly wish you great success and luck in producing US&E. I'm looking forward to it.
 
12 pages about a sales pitch with OP making multiple long posts beating around the bush, not revealing his ideas on any useful level. A bunch of grandiose claims with the goal of selling your product.

Threads like this should be banned, either share the method and discuss it with others, or go sell it somewhere else.
 
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