“Playing Off The Rail” great read!
What is a Shortstop?
- Thread starter sjm
- Start date
What you’re describing is a struggling pro. Not a shortstop.
A shortstop is a really good local guy that give a pro a good match with a light spot or even steal one on a barbox.
A shortstop is defined by skill level. Not by the binary of day job or not.
I love it when I see an opponent's jump cue come out. Good things are about to happen. For me.
Well said. they lurk in that middle ground between nits and champions. capable of beating/losing to top players on any given day. you're dead-on about beating one early, it will kill your action.
The question should be -- what was a shortstop because the term no longer has any meaning. With the rise of amateur pool, and now with established professional events everywhere, we have established rating systems for everybody. The murky, shadowy, urban legendary type monikers are no longer useful. Sad in a way but still true.
Now I'll be back later....much later.
Now I'll be back later....much later.
I get that. I’m saying a shortstop will look like a pro when they play your average leaguer but when they play actual pros, they start looking like an amateur. Frankly I think 650 players like to think of themselves as shortstops but as far as I’m concerned that’s stolen valor.
I think a 700 is absolutely the starting point of a shortstop. The only debate point is the 725-750 range. A few decades ago these people might have been thought of as pros. But in today’s modern world of international talent, those people are basically dead money unless you’re talking about a low money regional ranking event like the Seattle Open. It might be insulting to tell them they are upper shortstops but honestly when I look at the Top 100 in the US, I’d absolutely call 95% of those people shortstops. They’d be fooling themselves to think otherwise.
Anyone I consider a pro is absolutely giving them a spot.
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I think that’s a very interesting question. In the past you might talk of shortstops in terms of road players coming through town and a shortstop might be a respectable rating of a player they might meet. Now that that kind of scene is dead, is the term shortstop just a relic of the past we are trying to make relevant in a world it doesn’t apply to anymore.
Pool in the North American continent has had a sub culture for a very long time. In skateboarding there‘s a subculture too. You can buy a high dollar skateboard and hit some real nice skate parks all around the country. That doesn’t mean that you are part of that subculture. Doesn’t mean you’re not ether, but if you are really are part of the skate boarding subculture you know it and the skaters in that subculture know you. And if you are it doesn’t mean you are the greatest skater. The days of sneaking up and nobody knowing you may be about over because of technology but has nothing to do with the term “Shortstop.” The sub culture in pool is not dead... shortstop still applies.
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I agree with what you are saying and I think that applies today.
In the past I think it was different. For one thing, there just were not that many 700+ level players like there are today. When I lived in Denver (< 2000) many of the top players were probably in the mid 600s by today's FARGO ratings. Yet I would call them shortstops in multiple senses of the word.
1) They were willing to jump in the box and bet some with road players that came through. Making it a "short stop" for them to get some money to continue on down the road.
2) I always thought there was a little bit of the baseball analogy in it as well. Meaning that lower level road players might come through town and take money from some of the locals but eventually they would start to get out of the infield and the short stops would get them in a game and bust them.
Keep in mind, many of the players making a living on the road in the 80s and 90s were not great players. I knew players that probably never got above 600 that supported themselves and a family primarily through playing pool. They were expert at picking their spots and playing for small wagers. Go to any blue collar saloon on payday back then and there would be 3 or four of them with quarters up waiting to play suckers for $5 all night.
That’s the beauty of AZ…Justin Collet called AZ the Wikipedia of billiards. Just learn to search
I don’t think there’s a hard and fast threshold for a player to become a shortstop.
I’ve been around pool 39 years, the first 6-7 years I had never heard that term. First I recall hearing it was in the early 90’s in Vegas. In NorCal I don’t ever recall hearing the word “shortstop” back then.
Of course it’s well used on AZB. I think it’s a good description for a player who isn’t a world beater but is better than the local open players in most areas.
I watched Danny Media play many times in LA, Vegas etc. he was imo stronger than a shortstop. He wasn’t a world beater either. It’s kind of fuzzy I suppose, it’s hard to clairify what a shortstop is.
So now we have Fargo. Big deal, more numbers to attempt to describe how someone plays. That’s not new Gene Starry has the USPPA and his rating system. Which probably wasn’t as accurate as Fargo. But I will never believe that there’s a number that defines a man’s game he’s worked on his whole life. That’s a short sighted shallow perspective. Some guys can’t play in tourneys (that would be me), some can’t play for the cash. One number doesn’t fit all sizes.
Ok so having said that. If I had to put a number on a true shortstop I’d say 725+ or stronger. I never played that speed for more than a day or 2 every now and then. I never considered myself a shortstop ever.
That’s my 3¢ on this one. It’s somewhere in the middle. A catch all classification
Fatboy
I’ve been around pool 39 years, the first 6-7 years I had never heard that term. First I recall hearing it was in the early 90’s in Vegas. In NorCal I don’t ever recall hearing the word “shortstop” back then.
Of course it’s well used on AZB. I think it’s a good description for a player who isn’t a world beater but is better than the local open players in most areas.
I watched Danny Media play many times in LA, Vegas etc. he was imo stronger than a shortstop. He wasn’t a world beater either. It’s kind of fuzzy I suppose, it’s hard to clairify what a shortstop is.
So now we have Fargo. Big deal, more numbers to attempt to describe how someone plays. That’s not new Gene Starry has the USPPA and his rating system. Which probably wasn’t as accurate as Fargo. But I will never believe that there’s a number that defines a man’s game he’s worked on his whole life. That’s a short sighted shallow perspective. Some guys can’t play in tourneys (that would be me), some can’t play for the cash. One number doesn’t fit all sizes.
Ok so having said that. If I had to put a number on a true shortstop I’d say 725+ or stronger. I never played that speed for more than a day or 2 every now and then. I never considered myself a shortstop ever.
That’s my 3¢ on this one. It’s somewhere in the middle. A catch all classification
Fatboy
To me with the far right hand edge of the performance bell curve opening up a gap between them and the bulk of other professionals, the gap that the shortstop has to cover is just larger.
To carry over the baseball metaphor, the APA-7 third baseman is sitting in the 3rd base dugout and someone like Denis Grabe is playing 2nd base but he's standing right next to the 1st baseman, the shorstop is still in the field of play and now has to cover that whole gap.
With a bunch of "amateur" tournaments being Fargo 599 and under, that leaves shorstops covering that whole gap between Fargo 600 and Fargo 7-something. People who would be too bored playing against random people in the pool hall, even people who can run a rack every now and then, but don't stand a chance of making any real dime on their own.
To carry over the baseball metaphor, the APA-7 third baseman is sitting in the 3rd base dugout and someone like Denis Grabe is playing 2nd base but he's standing right next to the 1st baseman, the shorstop is still in the field of play and now has to cover that whole gap.
With a bunch of "amateur" tournaments being Fargo 599 and under, that leaves shorstops covering that whole gap between Fargo 600 and Fargo 7-something. People who would be too bored playing against random people in the pool hall, even people who can run a rack every now and then, but don't stand a chance of making any real dime on their own.
It is insulting to tell them that.
The 12th guy on the bench of an NBA team is still a fully fledged professional.
The difference between that guy and Lebron is absolutely immense…but they are both professional would be insulting to call that guy a streetballer lol.
You set the bar so unbelievably high…Being dead money in a world major now makes you a shortstop??? Someone better tell Alex Pagulayan and Ralph Souquet they’re now shortstops.
The point I’m making is that the word “Pro” has a skill level attached to it. That skill level has been deemed 720 fargo for the better part of a decade now.
Which logically would make a shortstop just under that.
Well to be honest. The conversation about FargoRate 720 is a professional has been more about “when does certain amateur events stop letting you participate because you’re too good”.
But when you look at the 12th man sitting on the bench of an NBA team, that man makes his living playing basketball. When you look at the Top 100 USA list on FargoRate and assess players in the 749-720 range. That’s from Mike Banks Jr. #41 to Kenny Loftis #100. Are they anything like that 12th man on the bench of an NBA team? Are they making a living professionally at pool? Are they entering all the open events? Are they cashing those events? Are they sponsored? Or are they at best the top regional talent of their areas where pool is pretty much a profit loss for them except for money gained from local side hustles. Aren’t they really just our country’s top pool hobbyists? Not only are these folks all likely to have day jobs (pool is not their “profession”), they’re probably not showing any characteristics of being a pro aside from (1) some are not allowed to play in APA Championships and (2) they play a hell of a lot better than your typical leaguer. At best, you could call them semi-pro.
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Yes…they are exactly like the 12th man on the bench. They are unfathomably better than a very good amateur yet not even close to the best player in the world.
I think you’d be pretty shocked what these guys make playing pool. For as dialed in to the pool community as you i’m pretty shocked by your take on all this. Next time you’re around one of these 745 fargorated “shortstops” Ask them how much they make playing pool and how it compares to the current #5 spot on the American Mosconi Cup prize money list. It’s gonna surprise the hell out of you. Some of these guys haven’t had a meaningful job in years. Between pro ams, lessons, regional tournaments, challenge matches, and random events, there are a solid group of people making good livable wages. Problem is that we’re dealing with pool players…a lot of them are degenerate gamblers so they can win $60-100k playing pool and they never feel ahead because they don’t treat their bankroll management as serious as poker players.
Anyways…back to the word shortstop. Stop using it to refer to 750 Fargos!
Interesting that this debate rages on after twenty years, but my sense of things is that a shortstop is a player that can beat most everyone in his area but is not good enough to beat road players passing through. I think that's the Fargo 700-725 player, a) whose best action will be local, b) who can post the occasional top three finish in regional tour play like the Joss Northeast Tour or Mezz tour, and c) is not a real threat to have a top ten finish in any of pool's majors.
PS For the record, I've never heard of a woman player referred to as a shortstop.
PS For the record, I've never heard of a woman player referred to as a shortstop.
L.S. Dennis
Well-known member
I suspect that you're pretty close to be correct on your opinion in this post. Being an old geezer I don't pretend to be up on all the current generation of young up and comers, but a couple of names from the past I think would fit your description. I'm thinking of Tony Annigoni, and Chris McDonald I'm not sure what their Fargo would have been but those two guys could have most likely beat any road player that came through the SF Bay Area during the 90's. Maybe Jay could attest to this...
Coos Cues
Coos Cues
A shortstop is a fargo in the range of 675-715. Probably a local legend.
Medina came to Tulsa back in the mid/late 70's to play local barbox demon Fat Randy Wallace. Randy beat him two, maybe three, ahead sets on a Valley. Danny got warmed up, paid off, and headed back to the mountains. Randy scorched him. When DM did get to shoot he was weak from Randy's onslaught. Danny was better than a shortstop but just not quite champion grade. Don't get me wrong, it took a top player to beat him but his run-n-gun style often ran out of gas against the monster guys.I don’t think there’s a hard and fast threshold for a player to become a shortstop.
I’ve been around pool 39 years, the first 6-7 years I had never heard that term. First I recall hearing it was in the early 90’s in Vegas. In NorCal I don’t ever recall hearing the word “shortstop” back then.
Of course it’s well used on AZB. I think it’s a good description for a player who isn’t a world beater but is better than the local open players in most areas.
I watched Danny Media play many times in LA, Vegas etc. he was imo stronger than a shortstop. He wasn’t a world beater either. It’s kind of fuzzy I suppose, it’s hard to clairify what a shortstop is.
So now we have Fargo. Big deal, more numbers to attempt to describe how someone plays. That’s not new Gene Starry has the USPPA and his rating system. Which probably wasn’t as accurate as Fargo. But I will never believe that there’s a number that defines a man’s game he’s worked on his whole life. That’s a short sighted shallow perspective. Some guys can’t play in tourneys (that would be me), some can’t play for the cash. One number doesn’t fit all sizes.
Ok so having said that. If I had to put a number on a true shortstop I’d say 725+ or stronger. I never played that speed for more than a day or 2 every now and then. I never considered myself a shortstop ever.
That’s my 3¢ on this one. It’s somewhere in the middle. A catch all classification
Fatboy
Reading all this... well, I don't know.
But my sense of it is that the term "shortstop" is one of hard earned honor and Fargo has nothing to do with it -- it's a local guy who is good enough to shortstop the road player coming through attempting to drain the pool room economy. Maybe the shortstop works a regular job and has to be called at work and told there's a game in town.
Think of it and the baseball position which is its namesake -- lots of balls hit in that direction, lots of territory to cover, and some tough plays to make. A shortstop is the guy who has proven himself over the years able to do all of that and someone the regulars can get behind to defend the pool room's honor against the guy passing through looking to steal.
Lou Figueroa
But my sense of it is that the term "shortstop" is one of hard earned honor and Fargo has nothing to do with it -- it's a local guy who is good enough to shortstop the road player coming through attempting to drain the pool room economy. Maybe the shortstop works a regular job and has to be called at work and told there's a game in town.
Think of it and the baseball position which is its namesake -- lots of balls hit in that direction, lots of territory to cover, and some tough plays to make. A shortstop is the guy who has proven himself over the years able to do all of that and someone the regulars can get behind to defend the pool room's honor against the guy passing through looking to steal.
Lou Figueroa