Ivory in cues and Japan.

Ivory is fucking stupid to include in a cue. It serves no practical purpose. I get that old cues have ivory and the market will do what the market does for these objects, but the idea of putting ivory in a new cue is preposterous.
 
skip100 said:
Ivory is fucking stupid to include in a cue. It serves no practical purpose. I get that old cues have ivory and the market will do what the market does for these objects, but the idea of putting ivory in a new cue is preposterous.
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Why does someone prefer a hard tip versus a soft tip? Is a multiple layer tip better or else why would people play it?
How come there isn’t a universal weight for pool cues, say 19.0 ozs and 29 1/2” long? Why does a cue maker offer
different joint variations if all joints performed identically in terms of functionality and tactile feel to the person using the
pool cue? Is a short ferrule better than a long ferrule and aside from its function, does both type ferrules perform exactly the same way? Is a flat joint different in feel than a piloted steel joint? Does the joint material or pin size matter?

Is there any difference between a full splice and partial splice cue? Does a cue without any weight bolt play or feel any different than a cue with a one (1) oz. weight bolt? There’s potpourri of questions that relate to why someone favors certain features or specifications in a pool cue. If you think an ivory joint or ferrule plays like a piloted steel joint or a plastic ferrule, IMO, you don’t fully appreciate the components relationship in a pool cue’s anatomy. Ask a top name cue maker? They’ll make a cue any way you want but ask if they believe there’s any genuine difference with distinction.

It is why I switched 20 years ago from playing piloted steel joints to flat ivory instead. You’ll likely disagree but it would
truly turn into a monochrome world if we all felt the same about everything so a good point to disagree is pool cues.
However there is little reason to use ivory as inlays, aside from esthetically preferred, because it serves no purpose.
 
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so long as he uses 100 year old ivory and can prove it. then have your ivory joint made. no problem.
but to kill an elephant so you and others can have ivory things is plain wrong.
 
So how does one "dispose" of items with ivory? I have to assume there's a proper channel for that.
For example if you inherit a cue, knife, firearm, instrument that has ivory in it. How do you deal with that?
Hopefully something i never need to deal with, but with an aging family you never know what you might find.
 
If you live in a state where there is a restriction on the sale of ivory, you are screwed……you cannot sell the item, and even trying to sell it while you are within the geographical boundaries of your state is a violation of your state’s ivory ban. Now obviously, a close reading of the respectively applicable state law is required to say for sure since every state
can enact its own version of an ivory ban. However, so far, all the states that have legally passed a ban on the sale of
ivory have closely emulated each other with the specific restrictions specified within the legislation enacted.

Keep in mind there are a limited number of states restricting the sale of ivory. Now that may be a good thing, or not so
much depending on where your stand on the use of ivory in a pool cue. I happen to believe it should be allowed but the
ivory should be taxed at a very high rate or a special usage fee surcharge……make it $100, $200, $500 a cue. That money should be used for elephants and other endangered species. Convert a problem into a solution, especially when the ivory used in the USA would have arrived here long before ivory was internationally banned in the 70’s. The awful slaughter of elephants, rhinos, etc. for body parts is condemnable and can be changed with more monetary support for creating more protected regions, modernized armed personnel searching for poachers and severe criminal penalties.

However, an elephant that died a 100 years ago, their tusks can be sold and used but at a very expensive surcharge solely intended for a special fund to be used to help curtail and hopefully eliminate poaching. I happen to think that would be a good thing but I’ll concede that others feel just the opposite. The continued sale of ivory actually perpetuates and worsens elephant poaching the way they see it. Now it does not mean they are right or wrong. It is their opinion, just as I’m entitled to mine. But get this straight. I will not break the ivory ban law and I abide by it.

Possession of a cue containing ivory is legal. You cannot break the law by just owning the cue. Ivory bans are “always” enacted on a de facto basis so anything before the ban takes effect is basically immunized. The Volstead Act made it
illegal to manufacture, transport or sell alcoholic beverages in America. Bootlegging proliferated after the law was passed. But prior to being enacted, people were buying all the alcoholic beverages they could gather before it became a crime. The law never stated it was a crime to consume alcohol, especially if it was purchased before midnight on the day the law went into effect. You could still consume any alcohol you purchased before the Volstead Act took effect.

Ivory in a pool cue is the exact same situation. All of my cues purchased and arrived before July 1, 2016. On July 2nd, I could not get another cue with ivory but the ivory ban did not render my pool cues illegal or subject to confiscation. I met with the staff of one of my state senators, spoke with the Department of the Interior personnel in Washington, DC, and met with CA Departmen Fish & Wildlife a couple of times. It was only prudent to find out as much as I could since I spent a great of money for my custom cues and I wanted to learn what risks there are and especially, sale limitations.

My pool cues are legal anywhere within the USA and cannot be confiscated because I simply have them. Possession of alcohol under the Volstead Act was not a crime. You could could still drink all the booze you bought before the law was passed but you couldn’t sell it. All laws enacted in America are subject to Ex Post Facto …a thing done afterward……you cannot retroactively ban ivory or make anything containing ivory illegal to possess. This is spelled out in our Constitution. In the USA, laws are passed as a matter of fact….De Facto enactment rather than Ex Post Facto.
 
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Bavafongoul said:
Ivory in a pool cue is the exact same situation. All of my cues purchased and arrived before July 1, 2016. On July 2nd, I could not get another cue with ivory but the ivory ban did not render my pool cues illegal or subject to confiscation. I met with the staff of one of my state senators, spoke with the Department of the Interior personnel in Washington, DC, and met with CA Departmen Fish & Wildlife a couple of times. It was only prudent to find out as much as I could since I spent a great of money for my custom cues and I wanted to learn what risks there are and especially, sale limitations.

My pool cues are legal anywhere within the USA and cannot be confiscated because I simply have them. Possession of alcohol under the Volstead Act was not a crime. You could could still drink all the booze you bought before the law was passed but you couldn’t sell it. All laws enacted in America are subject to Ex Post Facto …a thing done afterward……you cannot retroactively ban ivory or make anything containing ivory illegal to possess. This is spelled out in our Constitution. In the USA, laws are passed as a matter of fact….De Facto enactment rather than Ex Post Facto.
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But in the event it's something you have no desire to keep?
 
sudocrushms said:
But in the event it's something you have no desire to keep?
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Then donate it…….give it to a museum or ship the cue to your best friend in a state with no ivory restrictions so he could either keep it as a memento or sell it…..maybe send you the proceeds or donate the money to a charity.

Heck, ship me the cue to me for permanent safekeeping since I know the ivory laws inside out. If you want to donate it,
I’ll figure out away to satisfy your wishes. But I think you should keep the cue and pass it along to a friend or someone
you care for or love. It will become more rare as time progresses and it was created to be played so keep it protected.
 
In case anyone was wondering if I thought flat ivory joints had the best feel, actually I do not think so.
Based on all the cues I’ve tried, a wood to wood flat faced joint had the best feel of all the cue joints.
 
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I know a cue maker that shipped cues overseas with ivory for years with zero issues. I saw 13 cues myself, all with ivory being shipped in one lot. No issues.

I will not divulge his method out of respect for him and our friendship. We have had our arguments in the past as well as uncomfortable confrontations but always worked it out respectfully.

So yes it can be done…
 
Quesports said:
I know a cue maker that shipped cues overseas with ivory for years with zero issues. I saw 13 cues myself, all with ivory being shipped in one lot. No issues.

I will not divulge his method out of respect for him and our friendship. We have had our arguments in the past as well as uncomfortable confrontations but always worked it out respectfully.

So yes it can be done…
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Anything can be attempted…….and criminals do this all the time. Sometimes they get away with the crime.
And often, they do not and of course, they suffer the consequences. When you break the law, just expect
to be caught unless it was a lucky one and done cue sale that went smoothly and law enforcement missed it.

However, if and when you are caught violating the ivory ban, don’t cry crocodile tears and gripe how unfair the
ivory ban is or our government is meddling with commerce or anything silly like that. Just do the time since you
did the crime. Everyone knows I am a fan of ivory and my cue collection confirms it. But I comply with the law.
 
Bavafongoul said:
Anything can be attempted…….and criminals do this all the time. Sometimes they get away with the crime.
And often, they do not and of course, they suffer the consequences. When you break the law, just expect
to be caught unless it was a lucky one and done cue sale that went smoothly and law enforcement missed it.

However, if and when you are caught violating the ivory ban, don’t cry crocodile tears and gripe how unfair the
ivory ban is or our government is meddling with commerce or anything silly like that. Just do the time since you
did the crime. Everyone knows I am a fan of ivory and my cue collection confirms it. But I comply with the law.
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I have complied with the law for the most part in my life. BUT there were those adrenalin pumping moments when I out ran them..

The one pet peeve I have with the law is the traffic stops, that lead to DUI charges that are at times very questionable. The process of performing the tests is heinous IMO. Your asked to give evidence against yourself and coerced to do so. Even speaking gives an officer the right to say you slurred your words whether you did or not. Even though it is just his opinion, in court they will believe an officer over a citizen in a heartbeat.

Saw this firsthand when a guy hit my daughters car. I was nearby and watched the investigation firsthand. The guy smelled of booze, looked drunk but shut his mouth and refused to do any tests or speak to the cops. One told me they were 100% sure he was over the limit and he had a history of dui in the past.

They did everything possible and the guy would not budge. In the end they let him go with a stern warning and that was that. His prior experience and his lawyers advice saved his ass that day...

The cue maker in my comment had a rock solid policy when it came the shipping of ivory. He made the buyer know it was not his responsibility once the cues left his shop. On that there was no negotiating whatsoever... The risk was on the buyer with certain shipping conditions made and agreed to beforehand..

The whole ivory issue is blown out of proportion when it comes to pool cues. There are options to real ivory now which is a good thing as well..
 
You already understand there a variety of factors that come into play and the starting point, for very obvious reasons,
is the tip you select. And it never to ceases to amaze me that a good percentage of players do not what brand or hardness tip they have. It was on their cue when they got it and the cue plays fine so why bother changing it?

Sooner or later, either because you switch cues and the next one has a different tip or it’s time to install a new tip, that
person really doesn’t have a certain tip in mind. Often they ask or do a Internet search, maybe even post on Az asking
what others think. Of course, from that point, there’s a number of other factors I won’t bore readers with mentioning.

Naturally, one of the unmentioned other factors includes the cue joint itself. I once played with a Richard Black cue in
the late 70’s. It was handsome as a new Corvetter but boy, it played like a old Renault. How come? It was the joint. He
used a flat faced steel joint. It was like a mallet; just a hunk of steel in the middle of the cue. It had no feel on soft shots.

He later admitted it was a disaster as a design and he switched to a 5/16x14 piloted steel joint. Well, that’s what I was already playing and it was the most popular joint in use. I wound up having Bob Runde build me a custom cue shortly after Schon got started. It has the same joint and it weighs 20.35 ozs. I got the cue in ‘85 & played with it for a decade.

In 2005, I was away at a tournament and visited the exhibition booths where lots of cues were on display. I spotted a beautiful Joss West cue with a flat ivory joint. It weighed 18.5 ozs. I got to test play the cue and fell in love on the spot.
Sure it was a different weight and I know that was a factor, as well as the tip that was a Moori Brown Medium. But it
felt different. On a poorly struck ball, I could feel the difference when I stroked the cue ball correctly or better. My position seemed as if I could put the cue ball inches away from perfect on the 9’ table. I lost interest in the tournament and became fascinated with this cue. I talked with other players in the field and exhibitors about cue joints, etc.

I came home with the cue…..paid $1675 cash……and from that moment forward, I started looking into cue joints. I spoke with different cue makers besides the ones I chose to make some cues. There is an old expression that says everyone is entitled to their opinion. And I learned it can be right or wrong but sometimes it doesn’t matter, at least to that person.

The overwhelming, preponderance of opinions was the joint only matters when the rest of the cue is dialed in and when it is, metal is the most durable material and wood to wood being the most compatible and flat ivory being a close 2nd.

So as I started adding cues as eventual inheritance for my children and grandkids, I remained focused on flat ivory
joints. However, along the way I bought a piloted ivory joint made by the best known cue maker of piloted ivory, Paul
Mottey. It played fabulous but after a year, I traded it for my Prewitt cue with a flat ivory joint. It really did make a difference. FYI, all my flat ivory joint cues are just about the same weight……18.5 ozs……the same weight as the Joss cue I fell in love with. Along the way, it was sold to help fund a few custom cues I ordered.

July 1, 2016 my cue collecting ended but if relocated closer to any of my children, I’d have ivory grips on my Colt LC
and Joel Hercek would have built me my dream cue design I came up with years ago. Alas, it was not to be so I am
very content with the cues I’ve got. And decades from now these cues will be very rare and my great children will inherit them, along with the guns I’ve collected. And three are already considered S&W collectibles being made in 1978.

Vintage items that remain functional, like a pool cue or a gun, will be highly valuable years from now. I have a 1948 Winchester 94 (30-30), a truck rack gun with battle scars from years of use, it works and shoots accurately. 24 years
from now it will be a century old…..a 100 years……and my grandson will likely get it but I have other rifles as well.

My point is my cues were built specifically the way I want them to be, not the way someone else thought. I believe ivory
joints are more durable that wood to wood, flat ivory is better than piloted & esthetically, it is the most handsome too.
I have beliefs, and opinions, about the way a cue is constructed and how I want my cues to be built. That’s about it.
 
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maha said:
so long as he uses 100 year old ivory and can prove it. then have your ivory joint made. no problem.
but to kill an elephant so you and others can have ivory things is plain wrong.
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Easy to prove. An experience eye can tell by looking at a tusk, can judge about 10 year increments from when it was harvested until it’s about 50-60 years old. Then after it’s that old the look kinda stabilizes. Just have to see piles of tusks at the same time. Like cue makers can look at shaft blanks and see what’s going on. Similar concept

When you use green ivory in cue making it cracks and moves. Takes about 20 years minimum for ivory to season up and age properly before it can be used in cues. I knew this before Ernie told me so. I learned along the way.

Ernie’s tusks were harvested in the 60’s & 70’s from Botswana. You can tell the approximate region that a tusk was harvested from by its shape/dimensions. Tanzanian tusks are long and thin, Zimbabwe & Botswana are short and fat. As examples. There are many many variables in ivory, like grapes for wine. Different regions produce different traits.

The problem with talking about ivory is too many people get way to emotional (like females do sometimes😉) and common sense and the ability to learn goes out the window. So I keep my mouth shut.

Fatboy<——has legally hunted and shot lots of elephants over the decades. I’ve learned lots about poaching(very unlikely Ernie’s ivory was in fact illegal, I’d bet the farm his ivory was legal). I have loads of CITIES harvested ivory which is stored a State where it’s legal to possess.

Also elephants are still abundant in most areas of Africa. The Chinese are putting pressure on populations in some areas and hunting in such areas in beet bad and I’d never participate in that. Like rhino, they are just about all gone and it’s very sad. In the 50’s they were a nuance and shot on sight.

There are some very old posts I made on this topic. I’m not going to look for they they exist and are accurate as of today here on AZB.

And elephant meat tastes good. No protein goes to waste in legally harvested elephants.

Poaching is bad and is met with lethal force in Zimbabwe to this day.

Again it’s hopeless to have a meaningful discussion with any one who’s been brainwashed by TV yet never been in the bush. I’ve spent about 6 months of my life in the bush. My friends family has been in the hunting biz to this day, for over 50 years in Zim and Tanzania. They are on a hunt right mow. Wish I was there.

Go to accurate reloading dot com and see. The legal hunting industry is alive and well and isn’t raping nature. But can’t tell that to 99.99999999% of people who haven’t been there yet are experts. It’s worse than pool…..the arguing never ends.
 
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CITES regulations for ivory is easy to find and what country you are in is pretty irrelevant. It's a world wide set of regulations. I know that within USA ivory rules varies a bit from state to state, but generally speaking ivory is not worth the added risk is poses in terms of fines and confiscation. Ivory is also easy to detect and it's one of the things customs have a big focus on.
 
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