Ivory in cues and Japan.

Biloxi Boy said:
I do not know details about Ernie G. and Gina, but I absolutely agree about having the feds on your ass but my experience is that they usually, BUT NOT ALWAYS, have air tight cases when they move. The problem is feds have all the money and time in the world and use it. I have seen a couple of innocent men face bankruptcy in acquitting themselves. State cops are a very different story.
Click to expand...
I do know the general specifics of Ernie’s prosecution, not his failed defensive legal arguments. He knew the sale was illegal but proceeded anyway. California’s ivory ban took effect July 1, 2016 and Ernie knew it was illegal to sell cues to
anyone, especially international travelers. There’s no defense for smuggling ivory cues into or out of USA territories.

Aside from federal offenses, there is also state charges that can be filed by State Fish & Wildlife if he resided in a state
with an ivory ban and there are several states that do prosecute violators. You are foolish to think if caught you would
not be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law & there isn’t any defense to smuggling which this actually amounts be.
 
Bavafongoul said:
. . . He knew the sale was illegal but proceeded anyway. . . .
Click to expand...
Not a good case for comparison. Sophisticated seller and not a casual sale -- both of which may or may not be "legal" considerations but certainly factors to be considered by a prosecutor in charging and a judge in sentencing.
 
mikemosconi said:
I'm selling a few cues on here early next year- they are loaded with 'natural stuff" - should I worry? I really don't want to sell them in back alley's with one hand on my .38.
Click to expand...
Mike….just transact business physically in a state where there is no ivory restrictions. But you can’t sell anything with ivory if you live in a state with restrictions. If I went to Las Vegas , I can sell all my cues, buy more cues & return home.

It is all legal but I can’t sell, or even attempt to sell, my cue to a buyer in Nevada while I reside and transact business from California. You hear people saying they didn’t have a problem selling their cues loaded with ivory. Great…..go and emulate their recklessness but be prepared for all the resultant consequences if caught violating any of the state and federal bans. The feds will definitely prosecute if caught and I know California would, as well as NY and NJ. As far as the other states with ivory bans, I’m not sure but the 3 aforementioned states will aggressively prosecute violators.
 
Thanks -I am going to review all the latest ivory commerce statutes as I want to avoid issues for sure.
 
mikemosconi said:
Well if the U.S. postal inspectors are as savvy as you claim , this would be one site they could monitor to see who ships ivory cues most often - I would, if I were an ivory hunting detective, they can get addresses upon investigation- for instance - how many “legendary” cue makers are still on the east coast - I can take a good guess who this cue maker might be- so could ivory hunters who do their homework.
Click to expand...
I know California Fish & Wildlife monitors this website, Facebook, Craig’s List, etc. I met with the agency in 2015 before the ban took effect. I went over the law in great detail during a 30 mins. In depth discussion about pool cues. I had two cues being made by Bob Owen and Jerry Rauenzahn due for completion in October 2016, months after the CA ivory ban took effect. Both my cues are loaded with ivory inlays, ferrules, joint and one with an ivory butt. I was in deep shit as far as the law applies. But if the cues physically reached me before July 1,2016, everything was kosher but if the cues arrived July 1st or thereafter, I broke the law and would be subject to the penalties.

Since that time, CA Fish & Wildlife has started a TIP hotline. It also monitors various publications, websites and other
listings and I know that Az is one of them and Facebook. The ivory ban is real but it is not a national ban. Most states
don’t have restrictions but the ones that do take it very seriously. You can still sell your cues, even if you reside in CA.

It just requires more planning but if you have a expensive cue, like my Prewitt or Scruggs, it is worth the trouble. BTW,
I’d drive to Las Vegas to score a Hercek cue and while I was there, I could legally sell any or all of my pool cues. And FYI, your cues can travel anywhere within the USA legally. But if you want to travel internationally, you might not return home with your pool cues. International travel is subject to the country and agencies you will be encountering.
 
Biloxi Boy said:
Not a good case for comparison. Sophisticated seller and not a casual sale -- both of which may or may not be "legal" considerations but certainly factors to be considered by a prosecutor in charging and a judge in sentencing.
Click to expand...
Actually I think there is…….the sophistication or expertise of the seller or buyer has no bearing on one’s culpability, guilt or innocence. This was a international transaction, which Ernie knew ahead of time since the buyers would return to Japan with the goods. The international ban on ivory has existed for decades. Ignorance of the law is never an excuse as everyone should know. There are no legal considerations for determining guilt, only for sentencing. Guilt is determined by facts and the best of intentions, or lack of knowledge of the pertinent laws, are worthless arguments in deciding a guilty verdict. Now it does get considered by a Judge when sentencing but not the person’s actual guilt based on the legal facts of the case.
 
Bavafongoul said:
Actually I think there is…….the sophistication or expertise of the seller or buyer has no bearing on one’s culpability, guilt or innocence. This was a international transaction, which Ernie knew ahead of time since the buyers would return to Japan with the goods. The international ban on ivory has existed for decades. Ignorance of the law is never an excuse as everyone should know. There are no legal considerations for determining guilt, only for sentencing. Guilt is determined by facts and the best of intentions, or lack of knowledge of the pertinent laws, are worthless arguments in deciding a guilty verdict. Now it does get considered by a Judge when sentencing but not the person’s actual guilt based on the legal facts of the case.
Click to expand...
Please read what I said. And what does the above have to do with Mike's potential transaction?
 
Anyone know if the ivory ban is helping or hurting the elephants? It seems that the ivory ban made ivory more expensive and elephant poaching actually increased.
 
I think the USA's ivory consumption is minuscule compared to that of our Arabian, Indian, and Oriental neighbors, who, in addition to greatly appreciating the precious substance, also have the wherewithal to buy what they like. Then, there also seems to be an apparent lack of will to effectively legislate or prosecute.

I happen to like ivory. I also own several antique knives that have great sentimental significance to me. My "billiard" consumption is limited to a few ferrules. Still, deep inside, I feel that that it is wrong to kill such animals simply to obtain their tusks. I appreciate all of the rationales favoring utilization of old or seized, etc., stocks of ivory but it apparently became necessary to take radical measures to stop the wholesale poaching.

I just wish it was possible to regulate/govern without the pendulum having to swing so far off-center. Seems to me justice could achieve equilibrium in a far less radical manner,

Now, back to Saturday afternoon, "Hotty Toddy . . ."

Y'all have a good one.
 
Whether it is measureman’s friend, Mike’s potential transaction or anyone else, you don’t need to know there are some
restrictions on selling ivory where you reside to wind up dealing with what can turn into a very expensive legal problem.
You can argue your case before a judge but that person will be found guilty. All they can do is plead for some leniency.
 
as said find out where and how selling a cue with ivory is legal. then do it there.

if its nevada then meet the guy in nevada and sell it to him with a notarized receipt(bill of sale) that it is not to be taken out of state.
 
Time to pause……The Yankees Game is about to start and they play The Royals.
Are the Yankees overrated? Will Judge show up for the playoffs? Are the Royals
underrated? Great pitching beats great hitting 9 out of 10 times? Should be fun.

Best of 5 series…….home field advantage…….pressure is on the Yanks to win
just like is on the Dodgers. Is this another wild card WS winner?……Stay tuned.
 
We should take up a collection for a supply of lube for anyone that takes any of these ivory threads seriously. Always a mishmash of good information and bad, sometimes in the same post!

State laws are a patchwork and all over the place from nothing to cut your nuts off if you transport ivory into, out of, or through that state.

Inside the state sales will need documentation from the time it was harvested or long enough to prove it is antique. I have seen that it has to be proven at least a hundred years old. Might need a birth certificate for the elephant too!(grin)

When dealing with ivory we have to consider state law, federal law, and international law. Few realize that many of the woods that have been used in cues over the years and even recently are subject to the same international laws and treaties which is another risk.

If I had a cue with any questionable components in it and wanted to sell it, I would sell it locally to someone that is known. A pain in the ass and likely to lower the market value of the cue but there you are!

There are some exceptions for musical instruments that should apply to some cues too but people have had huge hassles with musical instruments also. One thing, the usual way to test for ivory is to press red hot or hotter metal against the suspected ivory!

I genuinely gave away all of my ivory to someone. I can't remember just who. I might remember if I tried real hard, so I ain't going to try real hard!

When it comes to moving ivory around it is a good idea to remember loose lips sink ships. The fed's can be almost unbelievably sneaky and tenacious sometimes.

Hu
 
I would be more concerned with Japan Customs, which expressly forbid the export of ivory into the country.

No international carrier, FedEx, DHL, etc. gets a pass from Customs.

Good luck.
 
Nobody in my area will be shocked if it's the cue maker I'm thinking of.
Is the cue a Bushka and the wood is still smoking.
Lost trust in him in the late 80's, I wouldn't give him a nickel.
One day Karma will ring the bell.


New York State's ivory laws prohibit the sale, purchase, and other dealings with ivory and rhinoceros horn, with some exceptions:

Sale: It is illegal to sell, offer for sale, purchase, trade, barter, or distribute ivory or rhinoceros horn.

Possession: It is illegal to possess ivory with the intent to sell it.

Importation: It is illegal to import ivory with the intent to sell it.

Penalties: The illegal sale of ivory is a Class D felony, punishable by up to seven years in prison. First-time offenders may also face fines between $1,000 and $40,000.

Exceptions: The Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) may issue licenses or permits for certain exceptions. For example, dealers can legally sell ivory objects to collectors outside of New York, but they must obtain a special license.

Age: Ivory objects that are over 100 years old are exempt from the law.

The law was upheld by a federal court, which rejected claims that it was unconstitutional. The law is intended to reduce elephant poaching in Africa and eliminate the ivory trade.
 
fastone371 said:
Anyone know if the ivory ban is helping or hurting the elephants? It seems that the ivory ban made ivory more expensive and elephant poaching actually increased.
Click to expand...

According to a 2024 report by the UN Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) the ivory market has been shrinking overall, prices have decreased and poaching has been reduced. For several years in a row now. (Approx 2016 from memory).
Ivory seizures are also down worldwide.

While poaching is by no means over, the trends are positive.
My information is from The Journal of African Elephants (August, 2024).

If you have other data that supports your comments it would be useful to post the information.
Thanks.

Will Prout
 
Last edited:
I was the owner of a Trading involved in IMPORT & EXPORT of various products to Japan for past 50 years.
Shipping Ivory can get technical.

1) You must find out the Import laws pertaining to Ivory into Japan. If it PROHIBITED then it's your risk. The cue might make it thru, or it may get with held.

2) If Japan allow Import with some provisions, then the SHIPPER may need to attack an EXPORT CERTIFICATE w/ shipment. Available thru Dept of Fish and Wild Life.

This is the technical part. You the Shipper, must research this stuff.

Just because you've shipped IVORY several times before and made it DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT.

As I said you might get lucky and it might go thru.
Then again, it may not.

If the shipment gets stopped by customs they will most likely DESTROY the shipment.
Then what will you do ? Who's going to take responsibility ?
Something to think about...
 
WOW.. all I can say...

The FEDERAL law prohibits all sale, or purchase, of ivory internationally. If they inspect your box and it has a cue in it, they can test for ivory. They are allowed to use any method they deem necessary to test the ivory. Black light, hot poke, doesn't matter. The other thing that the federal law states is that you cannot work ivory at all. You cannot take a cueball and make a joint, you can't put in an inlay. It is laughable that cuemakers not only still use it, they date the cue on top of it. The federal law is absolute, and there is no grandfather clause or anything that will save you.

Federal law has exceptions to ship intrastate. The deminimus exception is the most important aspect of the rule when dealing with cues. (You guys should read that)

State laws are different from the Federal laws and take precedent over the Federal laws in the owning, buying and selling of ivory. Often, they include mammoth, and other ivories in their ban.

Outside of the cue industry there have been busts, one in NY, and one in PA.

JV
 
Biloxi Boy said:
As many many people know from experience, everything is okay until you get caught. Successful criminals know to mitigate risk by changing things up so as to eliminate patterns.

About 20 years ago there was west coast crew of gang bangers who specialized in shipping small packages of narcotics, say 2 to 10 pounds, via UPS and private carriers. They were sharp, did their homework, and built many safeguards into their system. Trouble was it worked too well, and they could not get off of it. What they also missed was something most folks have never heard of -- the US Postal Inspection Service. The bangers got noticed but nothing happened -- the Postal Inspectors just laid back and clocked the entire operation for over a year. While not as well known or "sexy" as the DEA or the ATF, they are one diligent bunch, and they watch everything to do with the Post Office.
Click to expand...

Related video, this guy sold narcotics on the dark web, pretty interesting presentation on how they mitigated risks.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top