Mosconi Cup 2024, Nov. 30-Dec. 3, Orlando

Badpenguin said:
They aren't responsible really, which was kind of my point. If your have European and Asian federations funding the development of players from adolescence on up until adulthood, hard to compete with that.

At least table manufacturers like Brunswick used to help fund major tours in the US. Predator on some level is helping with the junior scene, sponsoring worldwide tours, and sponsoring players. But there is no framework in the US that helps develop young players, help fund travel and tournament expenses, and so on. In my short stint at college, a local billiards supplier along with AE Schmidt made sure a pool room existed in the student union, full of pool tables. They no longer exist there. If there was some sort of government grants or whatnot to help get pool tables in environments other than bars (high schools, YMCAs, Boy/Girls Clubs, colleges/universities, private rooms), maybe we could compete.

I don't have high hopes that any of this is going to happen in my lifetime.

The shame of it is that we really are the largest market. It should be the US market that Matchroom is trying to get and cater to, but they aren't. I think the Ultimate Pool people see the market though, but that leads in the wrong direction as far as I'm concerned.
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Well, that's the thing.. You "think' that European players are better because government funds player development. I mean.. "I guess", if you want to loosely define "government". But the truth of it is.. European leagues, look NOTHING like American leagues. In Germany, clubs field teams at multiple levels, from abject beginner, all the way up to borderline pro. You can move up levels with your team as your team wins the league season, or you can be "drafted" to a higher league level if you are outperforming your current team level. And at the highest level.. You are actually playing against the best players from other European countries.

Most of the clubs that field teams... Are self-funded by selling alcohol/food/snacks/club memberships. Better players teach lesser players.

Now.. Does government play a part in developing players once they get above a certain level? Yeah, maybe. I don't really know how that works at the highest levels in Germany. There's definitely a "national coach" for the team that competes at the highest levels. But to be blunt.. The European league system pumps out 700 Fargorate players like it's absolutely nothing. I am in a small club, and we have 3 players that would dominate most every middle sized city in America. And they don't necessarily play a ton of weekend events, either. Once you get to Oberliga level, you are playing players fully capable of running packs in 9 ball, running 50+ balls in straight pool consistently, and playing error-free 8 ball matches. The average level of play is MUCH stronger in Europe, and they all keep each other sharp with a league designed to encourage improvement.
 
jay helfert said:
Okay, it's over and I can get some rest. The final score looks just like the scores we've been seeing for years now. So nothing new there. The US had their chances on Days One and Two to tie the score or escape only one down after two days, but they failed in the clutch moments. They had one more chance to pull it to 6-8 at the end of Day Three, but failed once again and it ended at 9-5 instead. At that point their chances were somewhere between slim and none. Day Four became a mere formality.

I want to say a couple of things before analyzing any of the last three matches. Team Europe had four Elite level players, all of whom had won major tournaments and performed at the top of the game for years. Team USA had two such players, both of whom underperformed here. Skylar is a very good player but he is not one I would call Elite level. For fear of sounding too much like my friend Stu I will tell you what I feel separates players like him (the good) from the elite players. The top level guys simply have superior thought processes that subsequently lead to better shot choices and better safety play. That showed up here in glaring display. Add on the very best players kick a little better, jump a little better and have a little better cue ball control, and then you begin to see the whole picture. That's why they are champions and a lot of very good players can't seem to get there in the end. These guys know how to win!

About the rolls. I've been hearing this refrain forever and it's a hoax! The best players get the rolls! Do I need to say that again? It's true. It has a lot to do with how they strike the cue ball on certain shots, how hard they hit it and what they are trying to do. They give themselves chances to get lucky! And yes, sometimes it works and they can wave their hand at their opponent again. Match after match, Skylar came to the table looking at the object ball some distance away with balls in between. He could either jump or kick to hit it. He actually did a good job of hitting most of them, but you won't win many matches having to shoot shots like that all day.

In match one, Jayson vs. Skylar we saw a blowout, 5 zip! I hope you were paying attention because it aligns with what I just said above. Jayson Shaw is a great shot maker, but he is also is a damn good pool player. That's why he keeps on winning again and again. He is a smart player, a very smart one. He plays excellent safes, kicks accurately and put the cue ball exactly where he wants it most of time. As good as Skylar is, he is overmatched against Jayson. And it really showed up here.

In match two Gorst came out swinging and for the first time looked like the world champion he is. Before you knew it the score was 4-0 and it looked like it was all but over. It all started with him getting careless on the six ball in what should have been the final game. He got bad shape and chose to play a difficult combo from the six to the seven. Inexplicitly he slammed the shot and missed badly. He still got one more chance to win the game but blew that too. So now it's 4-1. No big deal right. But it was a big deal. Gorst had lost his mojo. A weakly played safe by Fedor led to Krause being handed game six. 4-2 now. Game seven, Gorst ties himself up on the three ball hits a weak shot and fouls. Krause runs out with BIH. 4-3! Game eight was amateur hour by both players until Krause shits out by lucking the eight in three rails after missing and double banks the nine. 4-4 and the mismatch has become a nightmare for Gorst. In the final game Krause had a chance to win but hits the three poorly (it goes in) and gets too close to the four ball. It's a touchy little shot that he fouls on. The ref is out of position and misses the call. Krause calls it on himself! Fedor limps over the goal line, looking like a wounded puppy.

What started out as a very exciting MC, ended up having a dismal end. The better team won.

The last match of this years MC pits Captain Skylar against Francisco Ruiz. Good vs. Elite if you will. It's a back and forth match and each time he wins a game he plays it up for the pro US crowd. That struck me as odd, considering they were down 10-6 in the match. Not much to be celebrating about imo. Let him win the match and then he can raise his hands in triumph. Skylar had a chance to win in game eight when leading 4-3, but he opted to go for a bank on the three that he misses. Even if he had made it he had no good shot on the four. What he overlooked were good options to play safe and tie Ruiz up, and yes, WIN THE MATCH! Isn't that the object of the game? Or is having fun with the crowd more important? Francisco wins the game for 4-4. In the last game Francisco makes a nicely handled break and run to take the match and the Cup 5-4. Those last two games are a microcosm of why he is an elite player and Skylar is not. At least not yet.

What started out as a very exciting MC, ended up with a dismal end. The better team won.
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I watched the last few games of that Skylar/Ruiz match, and I agree with everything you said. I saw that bank attempt, and I was very close to turning off the TV in disgust. I told my wife that shot basically epitomized everything about why we keep getting drilled year after year. If he could attempt that bank, then he could see the entire ball, and he had a good safe to drift behind the wall of balls that was downtable. Like you said, there was no good shot on the next ball.. So Why TF shoot it?

I saw no less than about 7 similar shots from the American contingent at critical moments, where there was a fairly straightforward shot, that the American absolutely butchered execution on, or looked like they simply threw their stick at, etc... Or there was simply no upside to shooting the shot. In races to 5, a single poor shot can often swing the entire set....

I agree with what you say about thought processes being the main culprit. Both Billy and Skylar are both "run and gun" type players, who need to be "in a groove" to play their very best. Well, that does not work against the world elite. You need to have a game built off of playing perfectly, set after set, day after day. Being intimately in tune with table speed, and how it affects kicks, OB/CB travel after a jump shot, etc..

But all of THAT aside... The American players simply failed to execute the basic safeties. They sailed 6"-1' too long, and left an edge.. A full ball.. Or a much better jump than they should have left.

And it is super frustrating as a fan of the American team, that they keep getting beat the same way, and are just not doing the work to correct the deficiencies.
 
ShortBusRuss said:
Well, that's the thing.. You "think' that European players are better because government funds player development. I mean.. "I guess", if you want to loosely define "government". But the truth of it is.. European leagues, look NOTHING like American leagues. In Germany, clubs field teams at multiple levels, from abject beginner, all the way up to borderline pro. You can move up levels with your team as your team wins the league season, or you can be "drafted" to a higher league level if you are outperforming your current team level. And at the highest level.. You are actually playing against the best players from other European countries.

Most of the clubs that field teams... Are self-funded by selling alcohol/food/snacks/club memberships. Better players teach lesser players.

Now.. Does government play a part in developing players once they get above a certain level? Yeah, maybe. I don't really know how that works at the highest levels in Germany. There's definitely a "national coach" for the team that competes at the highest levels. But to be blunt.. The European league system pumps out 700 Fargorate players like it's absolutely nothing. I am in a small club, and we have 3 players that would dominate most every middle sized city in America. And they don't necessarily play a ton of weekend events, either. Once you get to Oberliga level, you are playing players fully capable of running packs in 9 ball, running 50+ balls in straight pool consistently, and playing error-free 8 ball matches. The average level of play is MUCH stronger in Europe, and they all keep each other sharp with a league designed to encourage improvement.
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Russ I get it-you are spot on right on everything you mention. I’ve been there seen it, know it. Getting that information across the pond seems to be a bit much, sadly. 😕

Blaming bar box is an easy excuse, but certainly not the reason for the failure of American pool. Bar box is a very small reason.

There’s many reasons and they add up to what we are seeing year in and year out at the Mcup. So goes the Mcup so goes America sadly.

Hope isn’t enough. Action must be taken for America to be competitive again. Relying on past successes is a quick route to failure. This extends way beyond pool.

Best
Fatboy
 
ShortBusRuss said:
But all of THAT aside... The American players simply failed to execute the basic safeties. They sailed 6"-1' too long, and left an edge.. A full ball.. Or a much better jump than they should have left.

And it is super frustrating as a fan of the American team, that they keep getting beat the same way, and are just not doing the work to correct the deficiencies.
Click to expand...

aside from billy, who may not have the defensive game that the other four have, it was probably preparation more than anything. jayson said he took his team to a practice room for a week before, had 8 hours practice days with silicon on the cue ball to simulate the fast table conditions. and the TV table this year was crazy fast. that really showed in the safety exchanges.
 
Imma beat this dead horse one more time: Mosconi Cup should be America(s) vs Europe.

So that's North America, but maybe add South America as well. Yes, currently there are no obvious extra picks, but in the future there will be some Mexican or Brazillian prodigy.

At least N America vs Europe would make it continent vs continent.
 
jasonlaus said:
Shane sucks in every MC, I say it every year and try to tell idiots like you that there is NO reason to put a proven losing player on the team. Gorst has a worse record than Shane.

As a matter of fact, there was not a single winning record player on team USA. Yeah, takes a real genius to figure that out - you are a prime example of the stupidity in America- you can't do simple math
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svb will qualify by points every year unless two american superstars comes out of nowhere and wins more WNT events
 
DaWizard said:
Imma beat this dead horse one more time: Mosconi Cup should be America(s) vs Europe.

So that's North America, but maybe add South America as well. Yes, currently there are no obvious extra picks, but in the future there will be some Mexican or Brazillian prodigy.

At least N America vs Europe would make it continent vs continent.
Click to expand...

It's been talked about many times and I agree.

In last years thread it was discussed ad nauseam.

Here's what I said after last years result:

MOSCONI CUP 2023 AZB Watch Party / Master Thread

Thought I would start a thread here for those of us who want to watch and chat about the action, or follow the results. I’ll try to keep the match scores updated here in the top post in real time. Give this a Like if you plan to follow closely — and don’t open this thread if you plan to watch...
forums.azbilliards.com
 
Fatboy said:
Great summary Jay.

One thing I’d like to elaborate on it the over celebration after each rack by everyone. It’s probably a good thing for making it a fun exciting show for people who don’t play pool, and an embarrassment for those who do.

Most likely a net gain for audience retention, but torture to watch as a player. I’m all about having fun and celebrating, but not when you’re buried in the event. Pretty soon they will have to have a longer shot clock so they can slap a round of high 5’s after each shot…..

I suppose if it’s good for the show, it’s good for pool.

The better anyone plays the luckier they get. No doubt about it!

Was another great year, thanks Jay for your well written and accurate post show analysis, I look forward to it again next year!

I saw Stu in the audience, that was cool.

The MT5OA loyalists were out in force. We will get the orange 5 back again and restore order in the pool world🧡🧡

Thx Jay!

Best
Fatboy😃😃
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I'm sure they are coached to express themselves as much as possible to fire up the arena audience and make it more exciting for the TV and online fans. A lot of those "entertainers" wearing outrageous costumes and dancing around between games are probably hired by Matchroom to do just that. Some of it looks as fake as WWE.
 
Nick B said:
I said this a thousand times about Matchroom Refs especially John L and Marcel. They are do busy looking for clothing fouls instead of correct position to see ball hits and reactions.
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If it's me I'm hovering right over the balls so I can see the hit clearly. Yes, I would be in the players line of sight, but I would be standing still. The players have never had a problem with where I stand. They know what's going on. Standing behind the player here is a big no no.
 
ShortBusRuss said:
I watched the last few games of that Skylar/Ruiz match, and I agree with everything you said. I saw that bank attempt, and I was very close to turning off the TV in disgust. I told my wife that shot basically epitomized everything about why we keep getting drilled year after year. If he could attempt that bank, then he could see the entire ball, and he had a good safe to drift behind the wall of balls that was downtable. Like you said, there was no good shot on the next ball.. So Why TF shoot it?

I saw no less than about 7 similar shots from the American contingent at critical moments, where there was a fairly straightforward shot, that the American absolutely butchered execution on, or looked like they simply threw their stick at, etc... Or there was simply no upside to shooting the shot. In races to 5, a single poor shot can often swing the entire set....

I agree with what you say about thought processes being the main culprit. Both Billy and Skylar are both "run and gun" type players, who need to be "in a groove" to play their very best. Well, that does not work against the world elite. You need to have a game built off of playing perfectly, set after set, day after day. Being intimately in tune with table speed, and how it affects kicks, OB/CB travel after a jump shot, etc..

But all of THAT aside... The American players simply failed to execute the basic safeties. They sailed 6"-1' too long, and left an edge.. A full ball.. Or a much better jump than they should have left.

And it is super frustrating as a fan of the American team, that they keep getting beat the same way, and are just not doing the work to correct the deficiencies.
Click to expand...
Pretty much correct on all counts here. Our man Stu has been saying basically the same thing for years but nobodies paying attention.
 
Nick B said:
I said this a thousand times about Matchroom Refs especially John L and Marcel. They are do busy looking for clothing fouls instead of correct position to see ball hits and reactions.
Click to expand...
I've often said there are only a handful of really good pool referees in the game. I worked with two of them. Michaela Tabb and Nigel Rees.
 
garczar said:
How are table/cue vendors responsible for not steering US play onto big tables? You can't force people to play on tables they're afraid of. All leagues and 90% of tournaments are on bb's. I don't see how an equipment maker could induce more 9ft play.
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Table and cue vendors can’t force people to open pool halls. In our area it’s just not profitable. You need a liquor license and in pa one of those is going from 400k to 500k. So all your places to play are bars with a couple tables. some pool halls exist in bigger cities but living in york if you want to play big table pool you have to be a member of a private club
 
ShortBusRuss said:
Well, that's the thing.. You "think' that European players are better because government funds player development. I mean.. "I guess", if you want to loosely define "government". But the truth of it is.. European leagues, look NOTHING like American leagues. In Germany, clubs field teams at multiple levels, from abject beginner, all the way up to borderline pro. You can move up levels with your team as your team wins the league season, or you can be "drafted" to a higher league level if you are outperforming your current team level. And at the highest level.. You are actually playing against the best players from other European countries.

Most of the clubs that field teams... Are self-funded by selling alcohol/food/snacks/club memberships. Better players teach lesser players.

Now.. Does government play a part in developing players once they get above a certain level? Yeah, maybe. I don't really know how that works at the highest levels in Germany. There's definitely a "national coach" for the team that competes at the highest levels. But to be blunt.. The European league system pumps out 700 Fargorate players like it's absolutely nothing. I am in a small club, and we have 3 players that would dominate most every middle sized city in America. And they don't necessarily play a ton of weekend events, either. Once you get to Oberliga level, you are playing players fully capable of running packs in 9 ball, running 50+ balls in straight pool consistently, and playing error-free 8 ball matches. The average level of play is MUCH stronger in Europe, and they all keep each other sharp with a league designed to encourage improvement.
Click to expand...
Leagues and national championships in Germany are being held by the DBU, the national head organisation of billiards. It's not government-funded. It's an association which is funded by commercials and contributions of the local federations (which itself receive contributions from local clubs) that organize the different league systems across the country. It's an indipendent organisation like in any other sports.

I totally agree with what you say and I stick to what I say every year after the American team got beaten in the MC:
The professional structure of pool leagues in Europe, and espacially Germany, is the driving factor for the consistent high performance of European pool players over the last two decades long before the professional structure by the WNT was established. There's a reason for that, that top pool players from all across Europe like Feijen, Filler, Lechner, Hohmann, Souquet, Bijsterbosch are/were attracted by the German Bundesliga. It's still the most competitive structure for pool billiard in Europe! This professional organisation of sports favours the natural outcome of skilled players...in any sport.
And as far as I see it, that's not the way how sport development works in the US.
 
couldnthinkof01 said:
Well, that sucked
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Look at the bright side. Now it has been established that you don`t have to be an American to be on the team the possibilities are endless. Maybe we can get 4 more foreign players so we can cut all the Americans.
This event was beyond pathetic. Gorst played like an APA 7 and we deserved it. The Russian/American collaboration didn`t work out. We would have better off without him.
 
Hungarian said:
It's been talked about many times and I agree.

In last years thread it was discussed ad nauseam.

Here's what I said after last years result:

MOSCONI CUP 2023 AZB Watch Party / Master Thread

Thought I would start a thread here for those of us who want to watch and chat about the action, or follow the results. I’ll try to keep the match scores updated here in the top post in real time. Give this a Like if you plan to follow closely — and don’t open this thread if you plan to watch...
forums.azbilliards.com
Click to expand...

The problem is it doesn't work as well for TV.

The US as the home of pool vs the outsiders works well as a narrative, there is a healthy rivalry (even if it is massively overplayed for TV) between the US and European players.

With the Reyes Cup for example you could see there was healthy respect, but no meaningful narrative or rivalry.
 
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