Who You Got? Mike Sigel or Nick Varner

[BasementDweller]

Sigel vs Varner...Who was better?

I would like nothing more than to really know what their head-to-head record was. There's no surprise that Sigel was the better of the two at 14.1, since he grew up right in the heart of 14.1 country. While Varner was a more Midwestern boy who I imagine played his fair share of 14.1, but rounded out his game with banks and one-pocket.

I've looked at their career achievements that are listed in Wikipedia (which looks like a good starting point) and I wouldn't argue that Varner had the better career, but I would maybe argue that they were both monster freighters chugging along right past each other in the night. Of course they would anchor at the same port from time to time, but they both moved a lot of cargo! Their achievements are quite comparable. I'd say Varner maybe had a little longer run but they were both pretty hot for almost 20 years.

The times were so different, I suspect that they weren't always even competing at the same time and place. In today's world, everybody knows about EVERY SINGLE tournament under the sun. Did they back then? How did these guys fill out their playing schedules? They obviously played a lot of the same majors but you wonder how many times they actually locked horns.

Would someone please get these two together for a podcast? I would love to hear them discuss their careers. They would maybe have to use a chess clock to keep it fair to Varner.

 

[BasementDweller]

I know this has been talked about quite a bit over the years. But oh well -- they're two of the greatest ever to do it, so what's it hurt to have one more discussion?

 

[BasementDweller]

Might as well post this link:

 

[Nick8400]

Any given Sunday. But id take Varner for a $50 sweat

 

[sjm]

Sigel at straight pool
Sigel at 9ball
Varner at one pocket
Varner at 8ball
Even at banks

As all-around players, they were roughly equals, but during the straight pool era, Sigel and Mizerak were the two best and when the game transitioned to the 9ball era, Sigel and Strickland were the two best.

A player must be judged by performance in the major disciplines of his day, and that's why I cannot quite put Nick in a category with Sigel.

Sigel retired from full-time competition 31 years ago, and the countless forum members who saw prime Varner but not prime Sigel are likely to vote for Nick in this poll, but those who saw both will likely choose Sigel.

 

[Nick B]

As a human Nick gives Mike the 6-Ball.

 

[pt109]

I like Nicky for the all round….and don’t forget that Nick is the guy who beat Reyes on his own turf…can anybody else say that?

 

[gregcantrall]

Seems like the irresistible force vs the immovable object conundrum.
It would be interesting to hear their takes on each other. Assuming that they are cordial. But then again as Grandma used to say, "if you haven't anything nice to say.....Let's hear it." Could be fun and interesting too.

 

[L.S. Dennis]

Sigel at straight pool
Sigel at 9ball
Varner at one pocket
Varner at 8ball
Even at banks

As all-around players, they were roughly equals, but during the straight pool era, Sigel and Mizerak were the two best and when the game transitioned to the 9ball era, Sigel and Strickland were the two best.

A player must be judged by performance in the major disciplines of his day, and that's why I cannot quite put Nick in a category with Sigel.

Sigel retired from full-time competition 31 years ago, and the countless forum members who saw prime Varner but not prime Sigel are likely to vote for Nick in this poll, but those who saw both will likely choose Sigel.

I saw them both in their primes or close to it, and I'd say that the way you have them list is pretty close to being accurate. I'd probably have them very close to even in nine ball (where prime Earl was at another level above them in nine ball) but I think you got it pretty close. Both two of the greatest who ever held a cue. Sigel's total tournament wins was probably superior.

 

[BasementDweller]

Sigel at straight pool
Sigel at 9ball
Varner at one pocket
Varner at 8ball
Even at banks

As all-around players, they were roughly equals, but during the straight pool era, Sigel and Mizerak were the two best and when the game transitioned to the 9ball era, Sigel and Strickland were the two best.

A player must be judged by performance in the major disciplines of his day, and that's why I cannot quite put Nick in a category with Sigel.

Sigel retired from full-time competition 31 years ago, and the countless forum members who saw prime Varner but not prime Sigel are likely to vote for Nick in this poll, but those who saw both will likely choose Sigel.

I know Sigel retired young but Nick is actually 5 years older.

I agree with your view that players should be judged based on their performance in the major disciplines of the time. Which is why a deeper dive into their actual career accomplishments may be in order. During Sigel's prime, Varner was acknowledged with these "awards":

1980 Billiards Digest Player of the Year.
1982 National Billiard News Player of the Year.
1989 Billiards Digest Player of the Year.
1991 Billiards Digest Best 9 Ball Player
1991 Billiards Digest Best All-Around Player

Sigel has the following listed:
1981 Billiards Digest Player of the Year
1983 National Billiard News Player of the Year
1986 Billiards Digest Player of the Year
1991 Billiards Digest Best 14.1 Player

If we only had Wikipedia to base our decision on, it would be a difficult decision because it's actually uncanny how closely they mirror each other. Luckily, we don't just have Wikipedia, we have eye witnesses such as yourself.

 

[gregcantrall]

I saw them both in their primes or close to it, and I'd say that the way you have them list is pretty close to being accurate. I'd probably have them very close to even in nine ball (where prime Earl was at another level above them in nine ball) but I think you got it pretty close. Both two of the greatest who ever held a cue. Sigel's total tournament wins was probably superior.

Wait wait wait. I just took a closer look and see something that defies logic. Well to my addledbrain. 8 ball rewards straight pool skills. How does one win at straight pool and the other at 8 ball?

 

[sjm]

I know Sigel retired young but Nick is actually 5 years older.

I agree with your view that players should be judged based on their performance in the major disciplines of the time. Which is why a deeper dive into their actual career accomplishments may be in order. During Sigel's prime, Varner was acknowledged with these "awards":

1980 Billiards Digest Player of the Year.
1982 National Billiard News Player of the Year.
1989 Billiards Digest Player of the Year.
1991 Billiards Digest Best 9 Ball Player
1991 Billiards Digest Best All-Around Player

Sigel has the following listed:
1981 Billiards Digest Player of the Year
1983 National Billiard News Player of the Year
1986 Billiards Digest Player of the Year
1991 Billiards Digest Best 14.1 Player

If we only had Wikipedia to base our decision on, it would be a difficult decision because it's actually uncanny how closely they mirror each other. Luckily, we don't just have Wikipedia, we have eye witnesses such as yourself.

Great post, and it's shows that we're comparing two enduring figures of almost unparalleled excellence in our sport. Mike was, in my view, the best, but not by much. They gave us the greatest rivalry in pool of the last forty-five years and the only matchup that might touch it today is the Gorst vs Filler rivalry, the perpetuation of which is suddenly in doubt due to the ugly politics surrounding our sport.

 

[sjm]

Wait wait wait. I just took a closer look and see something that defies logic. Well to my addledbrain. 8 ball rewards straight pool skills. How does one win at straight pool and the other at 8 ball?

Other examples of this are Reyes and Archer, probably two of the five best ever at 8ball, but each with less than elite credentials as a straight pooler.

 

[gregcantrall]

Other examples of this are Reyes and Archer, probably two of the five best ever at 8ball, but each with less than elite credentials as a straight pooler.

This reminds me of a conversation I burgled while Efren was in the practice room at the Reno Sands circa 1985. A player that I didn't know approached and kibitzed Efren as he was practicing. He was barking Straight pool. As Efren effortlessly ran balls in rotation. After 2 racks Efren paused just long enough to ask, "are you sure you want to play straight pool?"

 

[BasementDweller]

Great post, and it's shows that we're comparing two enduring figures of almost unparalleled excellence in our sport. Mike was, in my view, the best, but not by much. They gave us the greatest rivalry in pool of the last forty-five years and the only matchup that might touch it today is the Gorst vs Filler rivalry, the perpetuation of which is suddenly in doubt due to the ugly politics surrounding our sport.

It really makes SVB's reign as top U.S. player stand out in comparison. His run has been both impressive and sad. He really just didn't have a rival. How different would U.S. pool have been IF SVB had had an average break all these years? Would Corey Deuel have held him back longer? Would Dechaine have stayed in the game? Would Bergman have surpassed him? Would Skyler have run him down sooner?

It's crazy how one particular skill may have changed the entire landscape of professional pool in the U.S. and that's not to say SVB doesn't now have a great all-around game.

 

[gregcantrall]

So I guess the only weakness Efren could have in straight pool would be the break. wasn't that his weakness at 9 ball when he came to the USA? How many top players lined up and played him with the 8 and the break in Texas. Shirley you know that Buddy was the only one to win a set. AND how long did it take him to learn one pocket? Puhlees. Straight Pool .....Are you sure.

 

[sjm]

It really makes SVB's reign as top U.S. player stand out in comparison. His run has been both impressive and sad. He really just didn't have a rival. How different would U.S. pool have been IF SVB had had an average break all these years? Would Corey Deuel have held him back longer? Would Dechaine have stayed in the game? Would Bergman have surpassed him? Would Skyler have run him down sooner?

It's crazy how one particular skill may have changed the entire landscape of professional pool in the U.S. and that's not to say SVB doesn't now have a great all-around game.

Well said.

SVB is awesome, and it is accurate to say that he has never had a true rival, at least at 9 ball. For a while, Corey Deuel was a rival, for a while Alex Pagulayan was a rival, and for a while Ko Pin Yi was a rival, but the only player that was a long-time rival was Dennis Orcullo, and Shane usually had the better of it. Of course, Josh Filler has owned Shane over the years at 9ball.

No US player has been a fair match for Shane since about 2010, and, just as you suggest, it reminds us how fantastic a player he has been.

 

[sjm]

So I guess the only weakness Efren could have in straight pool would be the break. wasn't that his weakness at 9 ball when he came to the USA? How many top players lined up and played him with the 8 and the break in Texas. Shirley you know that Buddy was the only one to win a set. AND how long did it take him to learn one pocket? Puhlees. Straight Pool .....Are you sure.

Don't forget that, in 9ball, Sigel wore Efren out, especially in tournament finals.

 

[gregcantrall]

Wasn't Shane pronounced to have the best break in 9 ball? Or was it 10 ball? Or was it both?
Short rack rotation games. Reminds me of the Snooker player comparing pool to put put golf.

 

[sjm]

Wasn't Shane pronounced to have the best break in 9 ball? Or was it 10 ball? Or was it both?
Short rack rotation games. Reminds me of the Snooker player comparing pool to put put golf.

Yes, SVB definitely had the best 9ball and 10ball break in the "break from the kitchen, one on the spot, 4 1/2" pocket" days, which probably ended in about 2018.

At least at 9ball, he has not fared nearly as well in the "break from the box, nine on the spot, 4" pocket days."