(Un)Popular Opinion on Fargo Rate

kollegedave

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When Fargo Rate first appeared, my initial internal reaction was something like, “This is super. Over time, Fargo Rate will allow me and others to better understand nuanced grades of skill in players, including where I fit into the pecking order…even if it’s way down the line.”

Right now, I view FargoRate as an almost perfect assassin for much of the joy I used to find in pool.

The accuracy with which FargoRate grades the skill of players is shocking…to me. Maybe everyone else knew this was going to happen and they don’t care, and I am late to my own observation.

When a tournament starts, the list of guys who will play at the end is fairly small. Even though players like Jesus Astencio, Tyler Styer, and John Morra are ridiculously talented compared to 99.9% of pool players, in a tournament that is well attended by players on the top 100 list, we now understand that they are “dead money” or almost "dead money" to win the event. There is no one who wants this last statement to be 100% wrong more than me. However, when one scans the banners at the DCC, the pictures are dominated by very few players and there is an outsized representation of Efren, SVB, and Fedor.

Prior to FargoRate, a player’s standing in the pecking order of skill was more of a mystery. In addition, I think it was less clear how much a player’s special expertise in a game contributed to a win or a loss prior to FargoRate. For example, prior to FargoRate, if a “Eurobot” player drew “Established Pro One Pocket Specialist”, this might be viewed as an interesting match-up.

Now, provided the “Eurobot” player has even a rudimentary understanding of One-Pocket and a sufficiently high advantage in FargoRate, it’s clear that (in many instances) the match is over before it starts in favor of “Eurobot”.

Finally, I think FargoRate makes clear that perhaps the most important part of becoming a world class player, is time at the table competing against other world class players. If you look at what countries occupy the top 100 Fargo Rates in the world, what jumps out to me is the percentage of players who come from locations where there is a custom to regularly compete (Philippines, Poland, Taiwan, China).

If you thought you could practice your way to greatness in the basement prior to FargoRate (I realize this might have always been a minority opinion), FargoRate has destroyed that misapprehension.

I am under no illusions. The FargoRate genie will not go back into its bottle, but sometimes it makes sense (to me) to notice the good and the bad.

I think the answer is finding new ways to enjoy pool in a new environment. For example, I may consider becoming a tournament director for tournaments capped at 590, where all the matches will be streamed, for free, with commentary from players whose skill level does not exceed 590, where the entry fee will be $1500.00 and the Calcutta will last 9 days, creating a purse of 3 million dollars. Obviously, the tournament will take place on bar tables with 3-inch pockets—we can’t have balls go that shouldn’t. Since the tournament is single elimination, there will be a second chance poker event. I promise to run my events as slowly as possible. Hopefully, no one is able to sleep.

The dress code for my events will be called, "Homeless Adjacent". We will encourage sports jerseys and pajamas. We will ban collared shirts as those are associated with "nits", but we will definitely not enforce this rule, because the best rules are meant to be ignored. Clearly, bathing is optional, and all disputes will be settled with loud shouting matches.

I resolve to embrace the future.

kollegedave
 
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that so true with fargo. you can use some simple math and calculate your chances of winning or coming in the money very closely.

that rude awakening should wise up most lower level players to even think about throwing their money in the trash. and even many of the top players in it if others with significant ratings are above them.

that's why matching up in the pool room always involved a spot to make the game more equitable so both players could get down.
although there as well, if you matched up too badly your money went in the trash as well. but you at least had control over it.
 
that so true with fargo. you can use some simple math and calculate your chances of winning or coming in the money very closely.

that rude awakening should wise up most lower level players to even think about throwing their money in the trash. and even many of the top players in it if others with significant ratings are above them.

that's why matching up in the pool room always involved a spot to make the game more equitable so both players could get down.
although there as well, if you matched up too badly your money went in the trash as well. but you at least had control over it.
I respectfully disagree with you on the solution to the plight of the "lower-level" players.

Maybe it's a little important how we define "lower-level", but I think players of every level (even lower levels) benefit from time at the table with better players. In fact, as my post would suggest, I think FargoRate tends to highlight the need for all players to have the benefit of actual competition against players that are better.

Just my 0.02

kollegedave
 
I respectfully disagree with you on the solution to the plight of the "lower-level" players.

Maybe it's a little important how we define "lower-level", but I think players of every level (even lower levels) benefit from time at the table with better players. In fact, as my post would suggest, I think FargoRate tends to highlight the need for all players to have the benefit of actual competition against players that are better.

Just my 0.02

kollegedave
You do realize you are telling lower FR players that in reality they can't win while at the same time you are advocating they play better players?
 
You do realize you are telling lower FR players that in reality they can't win while at the same time you are advocating they play better players?
Yes, I think FargoRate demonstrates that the cost of a high FargoRate is a willingness to lose. Don't shoot the messenger.

kollegdave
 
In the case of chess, I think chess players would get really upset if you took away their rating system. FargoRate does basically the same thing for pool, but it does it more accurately.

As for the need to play against better players, I agree with that to an extent, but the majority of improvement comes from focused practice or play regardless of the level of the opponent. The key is to pay attention. Most players don't.
 
The key is to pay attention. Most players don't.
This is why I like practicing on tough tables. The table will start to punish me the *instant* I lose focus. Same goes for practicing with really good opponents.
That's when it's time to stop for the day or at least take a break.
 
As for the need to play against better players, I agree with that to an extent, but the majority of improvement comes from focused practice or play regardless of the level of the opponent. The key is to pay attention. Most players don't.
There is a difference between learning how to execute, and learning how to win. (Not disagreeing with you, Bob, I think I am agreeing with you.)

A player can develop the skills to shoot well (including shot making, shape, and pattern play), but cannot as readily learn to win under pressure without playing better players applying that pressure.

So both sides are important to becoming a world-class player: the technical and the mental/emotional.

Doesn’t hurt to watch better players in decision-making, either, but that can be done passively, not necessarily in direct competition.

My $0.02.
 
In the case of chess, I think chess players would get really upset if you took away their rating system. FargoRate does basically the same thing for pool, but it does it more accurately.

As for the need to play against better players, I agree with that to an extent, but the majority of improvement comes from focused practice or play regardless of the level of the opponent. The key is to pay attention. Most players don't.
Good point, Bob. One point I will add is that chess survives in an environment where the best players have MUCH higher advantage in a single game, as compared to pool. And it does so by separating out "divisions" of specific rating ranges in tournaments. Which is what we are seeing the early stages of in pool.

The main difference in chess and pool is the gambling element. Pool in America is built on gambling, and the need to not have your speed clocked too precisely in order to maximize earnings, acts in direct contradiction to the idea of having an accurate rating. This attitude gets passed down to younger players, and they never develop the type of all-consuming drive to improve the skill, to improve the rating, that you get in young chess players. A gambling culture can only survive when there is lots of free money in lower/middle class hands. That is not the America we live in currently, and not one we are likely to be living in any time soon. So, we need to embrace Fargorate, and do everything we can to get everyone rated accurately, whether they want to be or not.
 
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The key is to pay attention. Most players don't.
After 45 years of playing, I just learned this a few weeks ago. I always try to end a practice session by stroking in a long, difficult shot. I don't know why I do that, I guess I just like leaving the table with that positive image in my head. Well, a few weeks ago I missed that shot and decided to set it up again. I missed it again, and again, and again. FINALLY, I noticed I was missing the same way (to the right of the pocket) and by practically the same amount every time. That lead me to learn I wasn't lining up correctly over the ball so while I thought I was hitting center, I was actually adding left spin (thus deflecting / throwing my shot to the right). I still haven't quite figured out how to correct that yet though.
 
After 45 years of playing, I just learned this a few weeks ago. I always try to end a practice session by stroking in a long, difficult shot. I don't know why I do that, I guess I just like leaving the table with that positive image in my head. Well, a few weeks ago I missed that shot and decided to set it up again. I missed it again, and again, and again. FINALLY, I noticed I was missing the same way (to the right of the pocket) and by practically the same amount every time. That lead me to learn I wasn't lining up correctly over the ball so while I thought I was hitting center, I was actually adding left spin (thus deflecting / throwing my shot to the right). I still haven't quite figured out how to correct that yet though.
Next time that happens, reset the shot but make it easier. OB closer to pocket, CB closer to OB. Increase the distance with each successful pot. I think that's a better way to troubleshoot repeated misses than just repeating the same shot over and over when you're struggling with it.
 
When Fargo Rate first appeared, my initial internal reaction was something like, “This is super. Over time, Fargo Rate will allow me and others to better understand nuanced grades of skill in players, including where I fit into the pecking order…even if it’s way down the line.”

Right now, I view FargoRate as an almost perfect assassin for much of the joy I used to find in pool.

The accuracy with which FargoRate grades the skill of players is shocking…to me. Maybe everyone else knew this was going to happen and they don’t care, and I am late to my own observation.

When a tournament starts, the list of guys who will play at the end is fairly small. Even though players like Jesus Astencio, Tyler Styer, and John Morra are ridiculously talented compared to 99.9% of pool players, in a tournament that is well attended by players on the top 100 list, we now understand that they are “dead money” or almost "dead money" to win the event. There is no one who wants this last statement to be 100% wrong more than me. However, when one scans the banners at the DCC, the pictures are dominated by very few players and there is an outsized representation of Efren, SVB, and Fedor.

Prior to FargoRate, a player’s standing in the pecking order of skill was more of a mystery. In addition, I think it I think it was less clear how much a player’s special expertise in a game contributed to a win or a loss prior to FargoRate. For example, prior to FargoRate, if a “Eurobot” player drew “Established Pro One Pocket Specialist”, this might be viewed as an interesting match-up.

Now, provided the “Eurobot” player has even a rudimentary understanding of One-Pocket and a sufficiently high advantage in FargoRate, it’s clear that (in many instances) the match is over before it starts in favor of “Eurobot”.

Finally, I think FargoRate makes clear that perhaps the most important part of becoming a world class player, is time at the table competing against other world class players. If you look at what countries occupy the top 100 Fargo Rates in the world, what jumps out to me is the percentage of players who come from locations where there is a custom to regularly compete (Philippines, Poland, Taiwan, China).

If you thought you could practice your way to greatness in the basement prior to FargoRate (I realize this might have always been a minority opinion), FargoRate has destroyed that misapprehension.

I am under no illusions. The FargoRate genie will not go back into its bottle, but sometimes it makes sense (to me) to notice the good and the bad.

I think the answer is finding new ways to enjoy pool in a new environment. For example, I may consider becoming a tournament director for tournaments capped at 590, where all the matches will be streamed, for free, with commentary from players whose skill level does not exceed 590, where the entry fee will be $1500.00 and the Calcutta will last 9 days, creating a purse of 3 million dollars. Obviously, the tournament will take place on bar tables with 3-inch pockets—we can’t have balls go that shouldn’t. Since the tournament is single elimination, there will be a second chance poker event. I promise to run my events as slowly as possible. Hopefully, no one is able to sleep.

The dress code for my events will be called, "Homeless Adjacent". We will encourage sports jerseys and pajamas. We will ban collared shirts as those are associated with "nits", but we will definitely not enforce this rule, because the best rules are meant to be ignored. Clearly, bathing is optional, and all disputes will be settled with loud shouting matches.

I resolve to embrace the future.

kollegedave
Well said. Fargo changed everything for old school players. I hate it.
 
When Fargo Rate first appeared, my initial internal reaction was something like, “This is super. Over time, Fargo Rate will allow me and others to better understand nuanced grades of skill in players, including where I fit into the pecking order…even if it’s way down the line.”

Right now, I view FargoRate as an almost perfect assassin for much of the joy I used to find in pool.

The accuracy with which FargoRate grades the skill of players is shocking…to me. Maybe everyone else knew this was going to happen and they don’t care, and I am late to my own observation.

When a tournament starts, the list of guys who will play at the end is fairly small. Even though players like Jesus Astencio, Tyler Styer, and John Morra are ridiculously talented compared to 99.9% of pool players, in a tournament that is well attended by players on the top 100 list, we now understand that they are “dead money” or almost "dead money" to win the event. There is no one who wants this last statement to be 100% wrong more than me. However, when one scans the banners at the DCC, the pictures are dominated by very few players and there is an outsized representation of Efren, SVB, and Fedor.

Prior to FargoRate, a player’s standing in the pecking order of skill was more of a mystery. In addition, I think it I think it was less clear how much a player’s special expertise in a game contributed to a win or a loss prior to FargoRate. For example, prior to FargoRate, if a “Eurobot” player drew “Established Pro One Pocket Specialist”, this might be viewed as an interesting match-up.

Now, provided the “Eurobot” player has even a rudimentary understanding of One-Pocket and a sufficiently high advantage in FargoRate, it’s clear that (in many instances) the match is over before it starts in favor of “Eurobot”.

Finally, I think FargoRate makes clear that perhaps the most important part of becoming a world class player, is time at the table competing against other world class players. If you look at what countries occupy the top 100 Fargo Rates in the world, what jumps out to me is the percentage of players who come from locations where there is a custom to regularly compete (Philippines, Poland, Taiwan, China).

If you thought you could practice your way to greatness in the basement prior to FargoRate (I realize this might have always been a minority opinion), FargoRate has destroyed that misapprehension.

I am under no illusions. The FargoRate genie will not go back into its bottle, but sometimes it makes sense (to me) to notice the good and the bad.

I think the answer is finding new ways to enjoy pool in a new environment. For example, I may consider becoming a tournament director for tournaments capped at 590, where all the matches will be streamed, for free, with commentary from players whose skill level does not exceed 590, where the entry fee will be $1500.00 and the Calcutta will last 9 days, creating a purse of 3 million dollars. Obviously, the tournament will take place on bar tables with 3-inch pockets—we can’t have balls go that shouldn’t. Since the tournament is single elimination, there will be a second chance poker event. I promise to run my events as slowly as possible. Hopefully, no one is able to sleep.

The dress code for my events will be called, "Homeless Adjacent". We will encourage sports jerseys and pajamas. We will ban collared shirts as those are associated with "nits", but we will definitely not enforce this rule, because the best rules are meant to be ignored. Clearly, bathing is optional, and all disputes will be settled with loud shouting matches.

I resolve to embrace the future.

kollegedave

Good post.

I believe you are correct in your assessment of FR — you can look at the numbers and know if you are likely to prevail or are a dead duck.

But, to be honest, FR just validates something many new: the cream always rises to the top and most guys are just playing for S&Gs, though I’m not so sure I agree with the EuroBot v 1pocket specialist assessment (I think if it's at all close a 1pocket guy can still grind it out).

Lastly, yes, you’ve got to be out there at the highest levels, playing all over the world if you want to stay in any conversation relating to the elites. Regrettably, many American players will not and or cannot strap-on this kind of time and expense. And so we are seeing exactly what you suggest: tournament play limited to certain parameters. And depending on your FR, this can be a good thing or a bad thing, but increasingly it is the future of tournament play in this country.

As to the dress code… no matter what we will continue to see idiots wearing shorts and Crocs in 20 degree weather, lol.

Lou Figueroa
 
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