Tip radius and accidental scooping the cue ball on draw shots

I just wrote this same question on a comment thread I have on youtube on Dr. Dave's latest draw shot video. I'll ask it here as well.

'Here is an interesting experiment I just did. I wiped all of the chalk off of my both my bk rush break cue (quarter shaped tip) and my jacoby black playing cue (dime shaped tip). When I attempted a draw shot with the bk rush I scooped the cue ball. But when I attempted a draw shot with the jacoby black cue, I miscued but without the scoop. I just ended up with a real weak hit and that miscue sound. Just wondering what your thoughts on this was?'
 
The_JV said:
"Scooping" is the result of stroking up while the tip is underneath the CB. ...and is a foul. Except maybe in the APA. Weird rules in that one
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What??? I can jump a ball off the table without ever stroking up.
 
newcuer said:
I just wrote this same question on a comment thread I have on youtube on Dr. Dave's latest draw shot video. I'll ask it here as well.

'Here is an interesting experiment I just did. I wiped all of the chalk off of my both my bk rush break cue (quarter shaped tip) and my jacoby black playing cue (dime shaped tip). When I attempted a draw shot with the bk rush I scooped the cue ball. But when I attempted a draw shot with the jacoby black cue, I miscued but without the scoop. I just ended up with a real weak hit and that miscue sound. Just wondering what your thoughts on this was?'
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Here is my reply from YouTube:
I would think a scoop would be unavoidable in both cases, assuming you hit directly below center both times. If you hit slightly off center with a unchalked tip, a non-scooping miscue could occur (regardless of the tip shape).
 
dr_dave said:
Here is my reply from YouTube:
I would think a scoop would be unavoidable in both cases, assuming you hit directly below center both times. If you hit slightly off center with a unchalked tip, a non-scooping miscue could occur (regardless of the tip shape).
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Yea, you are right. I probably needed to do a few more hits before I reported on this experiment. In doing it again, I did scoop on both cues and if I went off center horizontally got the weak hit and the miscue sound.
 
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hang-the-9 said:
Accidental scooping of the cue ball when done during a draw shot is not a foul. Scooping is only a foul if you intentionally try to do it to hop over a ball.
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Well if that's the case. Then any seasoned player could get easily get away with 'scooping' by 'accidentally' miscuing during a 'intentional' draw shot. If intent is the variable to whether or not a ball was scooped then I want you as a ref. ;)
 
The_JV said:
Well if that's the case. Then any seasoned player could get easily get away with 'scooping' by 'accidentally' miscuing during a 'intentional' draw shot. If intent is the variable to whether or not a ball was scooped then I want you as a ref. ;)
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I think Dr Dave has a video on fouls where he mentions exactly your point and says he believes a scoop should always be a foul even if it appears accidental.
 
newcuer said:
I think Dr Dave has a video on fouls where he mentions exactly your point and says he believes a scoop should always be a foul even if it appears accidental.
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I have lots of videos and info dealing with scoop shots, both intentional illegal jumps and unintentional draw miscues, here:


Here are examples of two recent bad calls made in pro matches concerning unintentional scoop shots resulting from draw shot miscues:

 
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The_JV said:
Well if that's the case. Then any seasoned player could get easily get away with 'scooping' by 'accidentally' miscuing during a 'intentional' draw shot. If intent is the variable to whether or not a ball was scooped then I want you as a ref. ;)
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Any actual ref would know how to make the call on a draw miscue.
 
The_JV said:
Well you said it wasn't a foul, so is it or not...? My point is that's exceptionally easy to sell a poor draw shot (w/ miscue).
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Nobody that plays with a ref, or among actual pool players, would be trying to disguise an illegal jump shot as a failed draw shot. And for everybody else, they have no idea about real rules anyway so be a moot point LOL
 
hang-the-9 said:
Nobody that plays with a ref, or among actual pool players, would be trying to disguise an illegal jump shot as a failed draw shot. And for everybody else, they have no idea about real rules anyway so be a moot point LOL
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i agree but there's also a case to be made for removing intent from the equation altogether
 
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