Miscue Limit

Scratch85 said:
I trust this answer but it does surprise me. My logic was that, as you approach the miscue limit, there would be a point where the coefficient of friction would lessen exponentially, causing less purchase of the tip to provide max English.


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Oh, no, not at all.

During the 1ms contact time between the cue tip and ball surface, static friction keeps the contact point from relatively moving. It doesn’t matter where on the ball surface, a “gripping tip” is gripping in the same way everywhere. The coefficient of friction is the same everywhere for all practical purposes.

Only once the force component tangent to the ball surface exceeds the normal force times the static coefficient of friction, does the contact point change dynamically, which is a miscue.
 
mr3cushion said:
The 'Purer' the stroke, the margin of error for 'Max effect' applied is larger.

IMPO, more miscues happen when a player tries to apply 'Extreme Draw' to the CB than trying to apply 'Extreme Side spin'!

Also, especially on 'Draw' shots getting a level bridge height is important!

To achieve that a player will have to change their bridge.

This was Hoppe's 'Fist' bridge for 'Nip' draw shots.

I still use it when the CB and OB are within 6"-10" apart.

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There is no such thing as a “pure stroke”. That is wildly subjective.

What is more accurate to say is that you hit the cue ball exactly where you intend to every time. It’s a lot easier for others to understand.
 
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nataddrho said:
There is no such thing as a “pure stroke”. That is wildly subjective.

What is more accurate to say is that you hit the cue ball exactly where you intend to every time. You can then call that “your pure stroke” but this definition by itself out of context isn’t helpful. It needs more information.
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Maybe Not for You. But many Top players have it and know how to reproduce it without a 'Gadget'.
 
I love to load the ball with juice,

To see it dance and spin.

I sometimes get 9 rails.

It helps me get a win.



I spin it hard with outside

On every hanging ball

It glides along the rails

To see what else will fall.
 
mr3cushion said:
Maybe Not for You. But many Top players have it and know how to reproduce it without a 'Gadget'.
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I never achieved a pure stroke every shot but I once did a pretty high percentage of the time. Not as common with my limited play time today but when I hit with a pure stroke I know as soon as the tip contacts the cue ball that all is going to go right with the shot.

For the original question I like Bob Jewett's rule of thumb answer and Nat's second answer. I don't know that four o'clock is exactly right but gravity let's us hit a tiny bit further out below center.

We can hit further out with parallel english than back hand english with front hand english falling between the two. However we get less effect with parallel english than either front or back hand english and less effect with front hand english than back hand english. Compensating factors that leave the best way to apply english in question. I kind of like front hand english or a combination of englishes but usually use parallel english since I have used it for decades.

Hu
 
Question from a simpleton: Does the cleanliness or lack thereof of the cueball have much effect on this miscue limit? Would seem that it would so unless the cb is really clean you'd have to continuously re-calibrate your striking based on how grungy whitey is. Really hope the resident geniuses can handle this level of inquiry 'cause i'm stumped as usual. ;)
 
Fore Rail said:
Don’t go further than 3/8 of an inch from center in any direction.

Should get you where you wanna go
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3/8" from center is just shy of the 2 in a Jim Rempe ball:

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garczar said:
Question from a simpleton: Does the cleanliness or lack thereof of the cueball have much effect on this miscue limit? Would seem that it would so unless the cb is really clean you'd have to continuously re-calibrate your striking based on how grungy whitey is. Really hope the resident geniuses can handle this level of inquiry 'cause i'm stumped as usual. ;)
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I bet it does affect the miscue limit but only by a small amount. I am guessing that it probably decreases the miscue limit by a percent or two ball radius, because the grime probably creates many complicated layers of various friction forces compared to chalk biting directly into the vitrification layer of a brand new clean ball.

This is only my guess because doing real analysis of this would be an exercise in curiosity for something that is a small effect.
 
nataddrho said:
Absolute max side spin can be achieved by hitting around 4 o’clock English and letting the ball transition from sliding to rolling mode. The math on this is somewhere but I forget where. It has to do with breaking static friction between the cloth and ball at impact and letting the axis of rotation stabilize.

In other words, hitting here creates rotational inertia in the ball, so that when it decomposes into a superposition of both horizontal and vertical axes of rotation, the magnitude around the vertical axis will be maximized.

If you hit pure side spin at 3 or 9 o’clock then no slipping occurs and the friction of the cloth will force more energy into the rotational inertia around the horizontal axis.


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The reason I asked this question was, (I read some where and I can't find the article), that you can get more draw by hitting above the miscue line. The reasoning was the the curvature of the cue ball, at some point, decreases the amount of spin as you get closer to the miscue line. So does this mean that you may get more draw by hitting above the miscue line?
 
nataddrho said:
I can’t find the proof. I will do the analysis myself if I can’t find it and report back later.
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A related discussion starts on page 26 of Ron Shepard's paper on pool physics. Here's a copy:


If the cue ball has time to rub on the cloth and lose some of its speed (but not much of its sidespin), it is better to use some draw with the side if you want to maximize the side relative to the speed. This is a standard technique. If you want to maximize the spin/speed ratio right off the tip, 3 and 6 are best for side.
 
Tennesseejoe said:
The reason I asked this question was, (I read some where and I can't find the article), that you can get more draw by hitting above the miscue line. The reasoning was the the curvature of the cue ball, at some point, decreases the amount of spin as you get closer to the miscue line. So does this mean that you may get more draw by hitting above the miscue line?
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I believe that is for long distance draw shots where the cueball and object ball are several feet apart. At the bottom miscue limit you lose cueball speed which results in more time for the draw to scrub off before it hits the object ball.


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Bob Jewett said:
A related discussion starts on page 26 of Ron Shepard's paper on pool physics. Here's a copy:


If the cue ball has time to rub on the cloth and lose some of its speed (but not much of its sidespin), it is better to use some draw with the side if you want to maximize the side relative to the speed. This is a standard technique. If you want to maximize the spin/speed ratio right off the tip, 3 and 6 are best for side.
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Yes, more articulately said than me.
 
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and of course a polished ball will miscue more easily. and means you must chalk better with them as well.

no one has mentioned the elevation of the cue stick affecting the spin and effect on the cueball.
 
You will need to establish your limit for yourself... Corey Deuel did a draw test several years ago at SBE in front of about 70 people. He used his notebook to limit how low he was going and turned pages until he miscued with Master and then he wiped the tip off and continued with Kamui and established Kamui had a larger offset where it did not miscue. That being said your limit will be established by your stroke accuracy, tip and chalk choice and chalk habits... It takes about a month to retrain your subconscious if you actively work on it. Otherwie your subconscious will just correct your stroke to be within it's current miscue programmed limit. It does not want you jumping the cueball off the table and embarassing yourself....... Try it for yourself... Place a dot lower than you normally hit and try and hit it... First time I tried it I worked for about an hour before my brain jailbroke.....
 
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