Why Pool Leagues Should Embrace “ALL BALL FOULS”

[dr_dave]

I'm dropping this debate.

Good, then I get the last word.

There's an old saying that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

... but it is broke. There are often misunderstanding, disagreements, and bad feelings surrounding all the different cases involving "CB Fouls Only" rules, especially with the examples demonstrated in the video:
- re-positioning a moved ball in a close-by but much worse place.
- moving an obstacle ball during a shot with the cue, for example during the follow-through of a jump or masse shot, even though the obstacle ball is cleared by the CB.
- deciding if a moved ball affected a shot or not by moving it to a place where it would not be hit by a moving ball.
- deciding whether of not more than one ball was touched or moved during a shot.
- etc.!

 

[Pacecar]

My opinion for amateur leagues is that, “stick” fouls and hair/beards/clothing/chains/hoodie-strings, etc. that move an object ball, is a ‘venial’ sin that doesn’t warrant the extreme ball-in-hand penalty of all other foul types. If an object ball doesn’t move at all, then no foul. If it moves, perhaps the appropriate penalty (if imposed by opponent) is loss of turn and opponent shoots with the cue ball where it lays.

 

[David in FL]

My opinion for amateur leagues is that, “stick” fouls and hair/beards/clothing/chains/hoodie-strings, etc. that move an object ball, is a ‘venial’ sin that doesn’t warrant the extreme ball-in-hand penalty of all other foul types. If an object ball doesn’t move at all, then no foul. If it moves, perhaps the appropriate penalty (if imposed by opponent) is loss of turn and opponent shoots with the cue ball where it lays.

So if I play a lock up safety on you all you have to do to give that result back to me is "accidentally" touch another ball?

 

[slide13]

An in-house league that I used to play in had all ball fouls for a couple of seasons. It was an absolute shit show all the arguments it created. Last thing anyone wants to do on league night is argue about whether or not their hair or shirt touched a ball out in space.

Simply cannot be done without designated and impartial Referee’s and nobody is going to pay for that. Horrible idea imo. I watched the video, doesn’t change my mind.

Now if you want to do this in tournaments? Where everyone is there to win and that’s what the game is about, not a terrible idea. But, frankly, it just doesn’t matter for the outcome of the game if the 6 ball moves 1/8” I mean come on that’s not worth an argument for any amount of cheese.

This is my take pretty much as well.

I'm not against all ball fouls in general or in theory, but I can just see it being problematic in a league setting and especially in the league I play in where there is no league director or anyone with authority on site during our typical league nights. We also have a pretty broad skill range including some people just getting into the sport and I like that there is a bit more latitude afforded them with CB fouls only.

I see not only an issue of disputes but also of unfair application of the rules. If you're playing a team with some good friends on it, are you going to call them on a bit of hair brushing the cue ball? What about when you're playing that one team full of a-holes that you don't like....probably gonna call it then. Without the impartiality of a referee I just see this being more problematic than less.

I have less concern in a tournament setting where it's less social and more seriously competitive and there is typically some sort of tournament director on site to settle disputes if they come up.

Now if we could have a ref at every table for every match then I'm all for all ball fouls, I do believe it to be the most correct and "true" way to play. But in my relatively casual Monday night league I'm sure we'll be keeping it CB fouls only and I'm glad for it.

 

[dquarasr]

Despite the endless smugness, pyramid scheming, and backlink spamming that dr dave brings to the forum, he is correct on this…We need to change to all ball fouls. The game has evolved the past 5 years. Amateur pool needs to as well.

IMHO, the bolded was unwarranted, in spite of your attempt to soften it with "he is correct on this." Dr Dave has promoted the sport very well and I enjoy and support his efforts.

Regarding the topic as originally being debated, I see no reason not to structure play with tiered rules. Leagues are targeted for diverse audiences. APA caters to the beginner or casual player, no problem with that. No pushouts, no jumping, CB fouls only. APA Masters is for the APA player who aspires to more skilled competition, and allows pushouts and jumping. (Disclaimer: I no longer play APA for a number of reasons.)

Perhaps leagues could also tier their divisions, and the higher up one goes in targeted skill level, the stricter the rules become, e.g., All Ball Fouls. Tournament play can similarly be tiered, where the more serious the intended audience is, the more restrictive supporting expert play the rules become.

@dr_dave, in anticipation of a response from you, no, I don't support relaxing all the other fouls as you have mentioned in some of your responses, but I can see different rule sets for different levels of play and in particular All Ball vs CB Only fouls. It's a hard game to master, and helping players enjoy the game at all levels maybe should be encouraged by the progressive rules as skill levels of the intended league membership increase.

 

[Pacecar]

So if I play a lock up safety on you all you have to do to give that result back to me is "accidentally" touch another ball?

No. As the opponent at that time, you have the right (see my parenthesis) to not impose the 'ball moved' foul. Just move the ball back and the shooter that "accidentally" moved the ball continues on with their shot turn.

 

[loggerhead12]

Perhaps leagues could also tier their divisions, and the higher up one goes in targeted skill level, the stricter the rules become, e.g., All Ball Fouls.

Interesting idea, but would you then have different rules in effect depending on who was at the table if a 6 was playing a 3?

 

[trob]

Dude I don’t even need to watch this. I’m not getting ball in hand from some poor new apa player because there damn shirt touches a ball. If you want to treat the pro’s like this great.. but they are amateurs. All this going to do is start arguments in bars over bs. How do I know this .. BECAUSE I SAW IT WEEK AFTER WEEK 30 YEARS AGO! This isn’t new . Our local bca and acs was like this way back then. The ball get’s bumped your opponent moves it back that’s fine for amateur pool.

Nah. I think anyone interested enough in the game to play in league can learn to play by all the rules. It might take more sportsmanship, though. If they are told what the rule is going to be, I think they would go along.

God guys like you are just a pompous ass.. it’s not about being interested in learning the rules. It’s ticky tack trash that’s just going to start fights and isn’t necessary in an amateur league. Not everyone is in leagues to be a pro..some just enjoy the game and a night out and silly rules like this just hurt the game for the casual player. We are in no position to be chasing anyone from playing pool.

What about girls with huge breasts? What do they do . How do they stop them from hanging down when trying to shoot a shot? That was another common sense reason we changed the rule

 

[trob]

Did anyone in an old guys softball league ever quit because they had to run around 4 bases instead of just 3?

Teach them the rules as they exist, and move on....

That’s not even close to being what this is again I speak from a place of experience with this rule from 30 years ago. theres a reason they changed the rules to you can move the ball back.

 

[u12armresl]

I address this in the video with examples and sound advice. This is not the problem you might think it is.

Please try to watch the video with an open mind, and let us know what you think after watching and thinking about the entire video.

Just curious, how can you tell him that it is not the problem he thinks it is?

Seriously Dave, I like your videos, but it feels more and more like you gatekeep.

 

[dr_dave]

Just curious, how can you tell him that it is not the problem he thinks it is?

Seriously Dave, I like your videos, but it feels more and more like you gatekeep.

Valid point; although, at that point, I had the sense that he had not watched the entire video yet.

 

[dquarasr]

Interesting idea, but would you then have different rules in effect depending on who was at the table if a 6 was playing a 3?

No, different “divisions”, using APA parlance, e.g. APA Masters plays All ball while “regular” plays CB ; or entire leagues run by a LO, or even game played. For instance, since 8 has the widest appeal, CB fouls, 9 on the fence (All balls or CD), 10 and 14.1 All balls, all played within the same league sanctioned body or LO.

Point is, the higher skill level your league is attracting, the stricter the rules.

 

[dr_dave]

Any knowledgeable player who has played in leagues before knows that many (if not most) players (and many refs at the national tournaments) are clueless concerning how to accurately detect double hits and wrong-ball-first fouls. And bad or disagreeable calls in these situations, which come up often, certainly result in arguments, bad feelings, and less fun.

Would having fewer fouls in US amateur league play make the game more enjoyable for the bulk of the American league players? The list of possible fouls is currently very long. And the long description of all the special cases for "CB Fouls Only" is a bit ridiculous.

Maybe I should do a video on why the APA should embrace "No Ball Fouls." Just play and have fun. Don't worry about all the "silly" fouls called in other leagues like:
- CB touches with or without ball in hand
- double hits
- no rail contact after the hit with and without rail-frozen balls
- wrong-ball-first for close, near-split-hit shots
- push shots
- intentional miscues
- scoop jump shots
- cue lift shots (already allowed in the APA)
- driving balls off the table
- not having a foot on the floor during a hit
- not marking the pocket for the 8 (currently penalized in the APA)
- etc.!
What do you and others think?

I thought more people might have some input or an opinion on this post. Should the non-Masters-division APA leagues adopt "No Ball Fouls" and get rid all of the rules that tend to cause misunderstandings, disagreements, arguments, and bad feelings?

 

[dquarasr]

I thought more people might have some input or an opinion on this post. Should the non-Masters-division APA leagues adopt "No Ball Fouls" and get rid all of the rules that tend to cause misunderstandings, disagreements, arguments, and bad feelings?

No, not all those rules, just ball foul rules.

 

[dr_dave]

No, not all those rules, just ball foul rules.

Which ones on the list do you think should be (or not be) allowed? Many of them seem like "ball fouls" to me.

 

[JPB2]

Which ones on the list do you think should be (or not be) allowed? Many of them seem like "ball fouls" to me.

I think SJM stated it well. The other rules don’t strike people the same way. You are in the minority on that point. Most see a big difference between inadvertently touching a ball and those other rules. I know I do. I don’t think it is a great argument for your point, which has things in its favor.

 

[Island Drive]

Will watch the video later but hard pass for me. Arguing over whether my shirt touched a ball or not doesn’t sound like a good time and leagues are about fun. Without referees, just forget all ball fouls imo.

And toss in liquor.... and no ref at each table.

 

[skor]

I thought more people might have some input or an opinion on this post. Should the non-Masters-division APA leagues adopt "No Ball Fouls" and get rid all of the rules that tend to cause misunderstandings, disagreements, arguments, and bad feelings?

Just skip to the burgers

 

[dquarasr]

Which ones on the list do you think should be (or not be) allowed? Many of them seem like "ball fouls" to me.

None. I could make an argument about the ridiculous rule where the money ball is in the jaws of the pocket, and loss of game is called because the player didn’t mark the pocket, but, Christ on a bike, whatever the rules are, know them and abide by them, no excuses!

 

[banged up]

After a 25 year break i came back to pool a couple years ago and just endured the worst bitchingest, whinefest, shark move infested league team ever and now Dr Dave wants to give clowns like that another excuse to create drama. Ill pass unless there are full time refs. First time I have ever disagreed with him on anything. And if As he says you can just say I didn't touch it then wtf is the point of a rule that cant be enforced anyway?

Tap actually is getting away from rules instead of going towards them. Example now as long as you jack up you cant double hit a ball according to TAP..

Rant over.