Where are the 'lost' Mosconi videos?

[L.S. Dennis]

I know this topic has been around forever but indulge me if I'm being redundant and ask it once again...
What the hell ever happened to the old videos of Mosconi's matches from the period of 1945 to say early to mid 1950's? This was a period when a prime Mosconi went through his opponents like sh*t through a short snake. Oh there were other greats during that period, Jimmy Caras and Irvine Crane and the like but it was the Mosconi show in those years. I've heard (read of anyway) those who opine "Oh they were all stored in some warehouse that caught fire and they were lost forever" This is BS and anyone who believes this I've got some good beach front property in Arizona I'd like to sell you!

I know they exist (or at least did exist) because I remember seeing clips from them during the early 60's on network television (that's all we had back then). It's possibe that the Mosconi family has them or the rights to them who knows. The only video that even remotely gives a glimpse of Mosconi in early time is the old 'I've got a secret show, hosted by Gary Moore (it's on YouTube) where he asked Mosconi to throw out some balls to show the audience how to run a rack of balls. It's in black and white and filmed sometime in the early to mid fifties I think.

I was lucky enough to see Willie in person two or three times, something I'll never forget!

 

[Bob Jewett]

Any motion recording of Mosconi playing back near his prime was on film. All of the clips I've seen were staged recreations of events, like beating Ponzi with a 5-rail kick shot, or exhibitions like the match he lost to Caras with the immensely bothersome idiot of a referee who pointed at each called ball.

I'd bet against any real tournament footage of Mosconi existing from prior to 1960.

 

[L.S. Dennis]

Any motion recording of Mosconi playing back near his prime was on film. All of the clips I've seen were staged recreations of events, like beating Ponzi with a 5-rail kick shot, or exhibitions like the match he lost to Caras with the immensely bothersome idiot of a referee who pointed at each called ball.

I'd bet against any real tournament footage of Mosconi existing from prior to 1960.

Bob, I too saw that staged footage you refer to. But some did in fact exist just not that much of it. I remember seeing some actual footage or clips of it in the early 60's of Mosconi playing in tournaments. Again what I remember seeing were just short clips of Mosconi tournament footage. I suspect you and I are roughly the same age so it may have been when we were just young kids. The motion picture camera was invented long before the prime time Mosconi. Hard to believe that nothing was ever filmed of him during that time.

 

[mikemosconi]

I believe that Bob is correct- I do not believe that much, if any at all, full length footage of major billiard tournaments were ever originated post WWII until Wide World of Sports started their billiard series after the post Hustler movie pool resurgence in America.

Understanding the history of the game, virtually every able bodied guy returning from the war was completely caught up with establishing work, family, housing, etc. during that 15 year time span- 45 to 60. The Korean War, early 50s again took out the next 18-22 age group out of the possibility of spending considerable time in pool rooms.

There just was no true interest, profit, or seeming need to make big productions out of pool tournaments. People were raising families ( baby boom) and many of us remember the home videos that our families took in the 1950s that we would watch in our basements as pleasant memories in the early/mid 60s---- people were not bringing video cameras and recording pool tournaments back then; and no pool rooms had in -house video equipment, in fact most pool rooms in America, post WWII until 1962 were just left over rooms from the pre war era or combo rooms/bookie joints opened up by the mob during the mob's expansion during it's post war resurgence 45-60- no filming in these places for sure!

Mosconi's family had a huge auction of Willie's memorabilia back in the 90s- I still have the original auction catalog -- it was all encompassing of Willie's life in billiards- and I do not remember any video tapes of Mosconi tournaments being offered - they would have brought in big money- so I doubt that they ever existed.

There were only some small clips of Willie playing - like TV shows that you mention- but I have never seen or heard of actual tournament full length videos during the 45- 60 era--- if someone has one- and it could be remastered----it would surely be marketable--- to a degree--- across the world of pocket billiards.

 

[Chopdoc]

Cellulose degrades. Even footage by major motion picture production houses has been lost. There are projects to preserve what is found. I saw a documentary about it a few years ago.

There was a guy that bought a pallet of old reels at an auction. There was an entire "lost film" in that footage. It was a treasure. He bought only one pallet of dozens available. It was said that it was lucky someone found it that knew what he had. It was lucky it wasn't degraded too much as well. Rescuing the footage and getting it digitized is sometimes a one shot deal. It requires time, expertise, and money.

From what I gathered, even when found, much of the old footage is not recoverable.

So, clips may exist. Full tournament footage? Someone would have had to invest in it to make it happen in the first place. So I think it's unlikely. Many major sporting events were not filmed in their entirety, they just filmed clips for news reels. Then it would have to be stored correctly if it did exist, and even then it may not have endured.

There may be undiscovered footage. I doubt there are full matches. But with each year that goes by the chances it will be found and recoverable decrease.

Even if found, whoever finds it need to value it enough to go to the trouble, time, and expense to recover it.

Sometimes old reels are found in the basement or attic of an old producer, cameraman, filmographer, etc. Often it is tossed. Often it is severely degraded. Rarely is it found, recovered, curated, and archived. Then...even more rarely...publicly available.

Even if some of it was transferred to video tape for television in the early days of video, that tape degrades. And in some cases you can't find a machine to play some formats.

So short clips probably existed, full matches probably did not. But that's not even the point.

Even the internet is not permanent as people commonly thought 25 years ago. Even CDs and DVDs degrade.

And finally...There are huge numbers of images and videos in digital formats that have been left unreadable today because the software does not exist to read them. This is jot a joke. These files were professionally produced for internet. This was especially news media outlets. There are projects to recover them but it is a massive task. There are billions of them. When they might get to the one you want to see, if it exists, and make it available to you, is a bit of a slim chance.

So, you can swear up and down you saw it, and you can be right. It could be sitting in storage somewhere in a climate controlled environment, even on digital media, and it is entirely possible that it would never be viewed again.

I remain skeptical but hopeful that we will see some footage at some point. The smart money says we never will, regardless if it ever existed.

 

[mareh]

Didnt you see the " The Baltimore bullet" , the first televised tournament was at Paulie's. and i think W.M. was explaining the shots

 

[garczar]

Easy, there isn't any. Filming was a big deal back then. NOTHING like today. I seriously doubt that any meaningful unseen/unknown film of Mosconi exists today.

 

[dumisin]

I know this topic has been around forever but indulge me if I'm being redundant and ask it once again...
What the hell ever happened to the old videos of Mosconi's matches from the period of 1945 to say early to mid 1950's? This was a period when a prime Mosconi went through his opponents like sh*t through a short snake. Oh there were other greats during that period, Jimmy Caras and Irvine Crane and the like but it was the Mosconi show in those years. I've heard (read of anyway) those who opine "Oh they were all stored in some warehouse that caught fire and they were lost forever" This is BS and anyone who believes this I've got some good beach front property in Arizona I'd like to sell you!

I know they exist (or at least did exist) because I remember seeing clips from them during the early 60's on network television (that's all we had back then). It's possibe that the Mosconi family has them or the rights to them who knows. The only video that even remotely gives a glimpse of Mosconi in early time is the old 'I've got a secret show, hosted by Gary Moore (it's on YouTube) where he asked Mosconi to throw out some balls to show the audience how to run a rack of balls. It's in black and white and filmed sometime in the early to mid fifties I think.

I was lucky enough to see Willie in person two or three times, something I'll never forget!

I know this topic has been around forever but indulge me if I'm being redundant and ask it once again...
What the hell ever happened to the old videos of Mosconi's matches from the period of 1945 to say early to mid 1950's? This was a period when a prime Mosconi went through his opponents like sh*t through a short snake. Oh there were other greats during that period, Jimmy Caras and Irvine Crane and the like but it was the Mosconi show in those years. I've heard (read of anyway) those who opine "Oh they were all stored in some warehouse that caught fire and they were lost forever" This is BS and anyone who believes this I've got some good beach front property in Arizona I'd like to sell you!

I know they exist (or at least did exist) because I remember seeing clips from them during the early 60's on network television (that's all we had back then). It's possibe that the Mosconi family has them or the rights to them who knows. The only video that even remotely gives a glimpse of Mosconi in early time is the old 'I've got a secret show, hosted by Gary Moore (it's on YouTube) where he asked Mosconi to throw out some balls to show the audience how to run a rack of balls. It's in black and white and filmed sometime in the early to mid fifties I think.

I was lucky enough to see Willie in person two or three times, something I'll never forget!

Pam Bondy has them on her desk

 

[mikemosconi]

I believe that the longest continuous video available of Mosconi on a table playing is the u tube 45 minute instruction video. If there is any doubt as to his ability to pocket balls or master position and speed- watch him in the first half of this video- past his prime by far, in a three piece suit, and just amazing- too bad the second half of the vide was devoted to trick shots- it would have been great to just have one 100 ball run of his on video. Just search and you will find this video on the net.

 

[kling&allen]

Cellulose degrades. Even footage by major motion picture production houses has been lost. There are projects to preserve what is found. I saw a documentary about it a few years ago.

There was a guy that bought a pallet of old reels at an auction. There was an entire "lost film" in that footage. It was a treasure. He bought only one pallet of dozens available. It was said that it was lucky someone found it that knew what he had. It was lucky it wasn't degraded too much as well. Rescuing the footage and getting it digitized is sometimes a one shot deal. It requires time, expertise, and money.

From what I gathered, even when found, much of the old footage is not recoverable.

So, clips may exist. Full tournament footage? Someone would have had to invest in it to make it happen in the first place. So I think it's unlikely. Many major sporting events were not filmed in their entirety, they just filmed clips for news reels. Then it would have to be stored correctly if it did exist, and even then it may not have endured.

There may be undiscovered footage. I doubt there are full matches. But with each year that goes by the chances it will be found and recoverable decrease.

Even if found, whoever finds it need to value it enough to go to the trouble, time, and expense to recover it.

Sometimes old reels are found in the basement or attic of an old producer, cameraman, filmographer, etc. Often it is tossed. Often it is severely degraded. Rarely is it found, recovered, curated, and archived. Then...even more rarely...publicly available.

Even if some of it was transferred to video tape for television in the early days of video, that tape degrades. And in some cases you can't find a machine to play some formats.

So short clips probably existed, full matches probably did not. But that's not even the point.

Even the internet is not permanent as people commonly thought 25 years ago. Even CDs and DVDs degrade.

And finally...There are huge numbers of images and videos in digital formats that have been left unreadable today because the software does not exist to read them. This is jot a joke. These files were professionally produced for internet. This was especially news media outlets. There are projects to recover them but it is a massive task. There are billions of them. When they might get to the one you want to see, if it exists, and make it available to you, is a bit of a slim chance.

So, you can swear up and down you saw it, and you can be right. It could be sitting in storage somewhere in a climate controlled environment, even on digital media, and it is entirely possible that it would never be viewed again.

I remain skeptical but hopeful that we will see some footage at some point. The smart money says we never will, regardless if it ever existed.

I’ve spent a lot of time trying to get access to some of the Greenleaf films and newsreels that are in the libraries of the movie studios. The studios are so terrified of anyone copying their content (of any stored film) that they would rather the content be lost forever than run the risk of someone else benefiting from it. Greenleaf’s championship matches in the 20s were routinely filmed and then condensed into shorts that were shown in movie theaters.

It’s sad that most of the remaining footage of the earlier greats (including Mosconi) are dopey trick shots and staged games.

 

[lfigueroa]

Just few random thoughts:

Somewhere during the Mosconi v Caras match, which is available, it is mentioned that it's their second match. I've always wondered if somewhere in the WWoS vault the first match isn't sitting around.

I love the "I've Got a Secret" footage because after he's ID'd he goes over to a table they've wheeled in and runs a rack (in coat and tie) like it was nuthin'.

Lastly, my recollection is that many moons ago Bert Kinister spent a lot of time raiding libraries for old pool footage and put out one or maybe two tapes of the stuff he'd assembled. There's a lot of the recreated stuff and trick shots but there's also some footage of stuff like Mosconi putting on a WWII USO exhibition and other random stuff like that.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Chopdoc]

The studios are so terrified of anyone copying their content

Yup.

It's a big deal. Access to such a thing would require money and a contract I expect. Probably have to hire an entertainment lawyer to negotiate it. Might even need to have some kind of agent. I don't know. That's a specialty area of law, and like many such things probably a circle of people involved.

I don't know what it would require.

Many or most don't know I would guess.

 

[kling&allen]

Yup.

It's a big deal. Access to such a thing would require money and a contract I expect. Probably have to hire an entertainment lawyer to negotiate it. Might even need to have some kind of agent. I don't know. That's a specialty area of law, and like many such things probably a circle of people involved.

I don't know what it would require.

Many or most don't know I would guess.

For pool content, it wasn't worth the studio's time (or at least their archivist's time) even if the licensing terms were satisfied. Here are two examples that have survived to the digital age, although not in a format that anyone can access them except when they (very) occasionally air on TCM:

https://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title/401684/sport-slants-6#overview

https://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title/401685/sport-slants-1#overview

Edit: I see at least one of these might be on streaming: https://tv.youtube.com/browse/sport-slants-1-UC3N7P_7n5pB06u4WMtVHvCA

 

[Chopdoc]

For pool content, it wasn't worth the studio's time (or at least their archivist's time) even if the licensing terms were satisfied.

That means it would require a grotesque amount of money. You would have to guarantee it. Who can do that?

After all, they are in business to make money, no other reason.

That makes me wonder how much it would take.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... That makes me wonder how much it would take

I think you're dealing with Disney if it was Wide World of Sports. You will not have a good time.

 

[ShootingArts]

Far from expert in this area but film degradation is a huge issue. There was an acid used in processing the raw film and it often wasn't killed properly. Many old movies that seem to have been stored well are only powder when the metal case is opened.

The first problem is that the production values for pool usually stunk to begin with. Most people wouldn't watch when the lighting was often too dark and the snow so bad there was no way to tell what the players were shooting at, much less the process of the shot.

There was some footage of Willie that I saw around 1970. It was old then but in very good shape. Willie's opponent was tall and slender compared to Willie. They were cutting to other things like Wide World of Sports did although I don't remember where this footage was from, and his opponent was shooting too. At most maybe fifteen or twenty minutes of Willie. However the quality then was sharp enough to appreciate what Willie was doing and he absolutely owned the cue ball. I thought I was pretty fair until I saw that video. Then I realized not only could I not play pool, I hadn't even been trying to!

Few would have seen the value of saving most of the pool video and I think it was possible to rerecord over used film too so a lot of priceless film was lost to save a few bucks recording a sit-com or something. There was a warehouse full of film that burned, a hundreds of millions or billions of dollars lost. Some of the greatest film of all time burned in that fire.

Hu

 

[Texas Carom Club]

theyre, get this
lost

 

[Baby Huey]

In post WW11, Brunswick spent a lot of money to re-promote the game with little success. Willie was their guy and if tapes were made they probably controlled their distribution. There is some availability of tapes from the Gold Crown era 1959-late 60's but not as much from the Anniversary era 1945-GC 1959 time period. I have some promotional videos from the GC era with Willie playing but that's about it.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Here is a history of how video has been recorded. Until 1956 magnetic video tape did not exist and when it was introduced, it was two inches wide

Timeline of video formats - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The nitrate film had a habit of self-igniting. Here is the story of the loss of the National Archives film collection:

 

[Chopdoc]

Even magnetic tape degrades.

I ran across this video about archiving and preserving audio tape recordings at the Smithsonian. While watching it I noticed what looks like Eastman film reel cans at the bottom of a box of audio tape recordings.

It just made me think how some films we might value could be randomly stored somewhere, mixed in with other media. It could be somewhere like this archive, or in someone's garage or attic, or in the closet or basement of an old editing studio that's now a Chinese restaurant.

It could be in a drawer in the President's desk next to a copy of the 18.5 minutes of missing audio from 1972.