SJM at 2025 Mosconi Cup: Way too Late Thoughts

OK parents, stand up, testify! You have an athletically gifted child. What are the top three things you want to see your child do? Top ten, twenty?

Either people have family in a pool business or they blunder into the game/sport in the US. Nobody aims a young person at a pool career for reasons both real and fancied. I haven't looked lately but look at the hundredth ranked golfer, or pretty much any other legitimate sport. Then look at the tenth ranked pool player.

Why in the world would a parent want a child to enter the pool world with the dangers and risks real or imagined? I never mentioned I played pool fairly seriously at family gatherings. Invariably one of my cousins would mention it as back then I was the best most recreational players had ever seen. That isn't really saying a lot, before the information age the average recreational player sucked. Two or three aunts or great aunts would ask me if I was a pool hustler. I had to explain that you didn't have to be some sort of unsavory character to play pool. In the early seventies I had a handful of skills. Even circle track racing offered far better chances of success than pool. Few pursuits had the admitted occupational hazards that existed in much of the pool world either.

One of the biggest problems with pool in the USA is that it doesn't attract the elite competitors. In the Philippines many have paved the way to fame and fortune playing pool so the fairly small country produces outstanding pool players. My own state is a poor state, poor enough that malnutrition is often an issue resulting in small statues in some areas. The result of small statues and decent abilities otherwise, world class jockeys!

When we see pool players able to safely make the kind of income that other individual athletes make we will see US pool players the equal of anyone in the world. Until then, we see the occasional sport like Shane. He picked a pursuit where hearing wasn't an issue. I think pool was a family business too.

There were twin forces driving my interest in pool in my early teens. One was drinking on other people's money! The other thing is I was very possibly the world's second worst pool player. I stunk! It was six months before I could break even playing for beers in bars. Being that lousy at anything I liked doing simply wasn't acceptable. Another two years and I was pretty fair. Then I realized that I had been focusing on the wrong balls. The white one was the one that mattered most and that I had the most control over! I outgrew the thrill of watching the cue ball spin pretty early too. I sat at the counter watching the old men play a lot. They were usually playing something besides straight pool but these old men had all learned playing straight pool. A straight pool style game was a huge advantage if the game involved a cue, balls, and pockets.

We would benefit from a different primary game than eight or nine ball, ten either. If the games discouraged banging early on we would have better players too. Pool, all of the cue sports, started out as battle simulations, war games. If we remembered the idea is to win the war, not single fights,(shots) we would be better off.

We need to play physically better, we need to play smarter too. Even our best tend to travel the cue ball far too much. When high run records are attempted, notice how play changes?

We need to make changes. The first one we need is a format that the top sixty-four, the top thirty-two at the very least, can make a comfortable living at. After expenses the vast majority of pro players in the US would be better off flipping burgers at McDonalds. We may finally be seeing this change. Time will tell. Meantime, Emily take care of yourself. We need you right where you are at!

Hu
 
Not so sure of this. There are far more pro events in the USA, and that's why players like Immonen, Hohmann, Shaw and Appleton moved to the United States. Moving to America also brought Gorst's game to the next level. I think it is as true today as ever that America has a lot more pro events in which to play than Europe.
Those players came to America in a different era of pool. You see less European players today making such a move.
What I meant was not about local tournaments but more bigger events, you will see more up and coming European players traveling to major events than American players at the same level. This experience contributes quite a lot to the progression and growth of a player.
Europe also have the Eurotour which is a pro tour, something that the USA doesn't have. Sometimes a Eurotour events fall on the same date as another major event and the top European players are absent, then you get to see how deep the Euro talents goes with so many great players that we don't know yet present top level pool.
This something that kids in Europe grow up into.

If we look at Fargo rating to try and find the next generation of top pros, how many under 30 players with rating of 750-799 are there from Europe and how many are from the USA?
I couldn't find such a list, maybe you can.
At the top 100 list, if we look under 800 we will only find about 25 players from position 74 to 100, in that short list, there is only one American - Justin Bergman and he is over 30. There are 13 European players, 4 of them are under 30. I'm sure if we had to full list all the way down to 750, we will find a lot more European players than Americans even though Americans probably attend more events that report to Fargo.

I'm sure that if we had a second level Mosconi cup with players like Lukas Verner, Lazaro Martinez, Sam Henderson, Nathan Childress, Eric Roberts, and Payne McBride, vs a European team of similar status, the Europeans will still beat the USA
 
Obviously, I am incredibly late to the party, but I stayed in London for many days after the Mosconi and have finally arrived home. For me, it is now time to reflect.

Perhaps the Mosconi Cup buzz is gone by now and many will not care what I have to say. I have not read any of the Mosconi threads, so I risk repeating what others have said. As I am sure it has been covered at length already, I will not reflect on the specifics of the play, choosing to focus on the event itself, the fan experience, and the state of the Mosconi Cup as an event.

The Result
It was hard to imagine anything but a rout, as Team USA, inexplicably, showed up with the same team that bombed in 2024, despite the frequent, sometimes profane, sharking of Team Europe’s players a year ago that gave Team USA an unsurpassed, and unfair, home court advantage. Going in, I felt 11-6 would be respectable but I feared worse.

Nobody is a bigger fan of Fargo than me, but Fargo offers little, if any, guidance when the same five players that have already been mauled on home soil try their hand on foreign soil. Fargo also fails to account for who is in form. For example, Moritz Neuhausen is playing as well as anyone in the world not named Yapp. In the last three months alone, he medaled at three elite events, winning the Peri Open, getting silver at the Hanoi Open, and getting bronze at the Qatar 10ball. He came in on fire and, unless his Fargo was taken at face value, nobody should have been too surprised that he was Mosconi MVP.

On balance, Team Europe was stronger than a year ago, with Filler back in the mix displaying his top form and two very capable rookies in Labutis and Neuhausen. Add these three to the always dependable veterans Shaw and Alcaide, and Team Europe was formidable.

Perhaps 11-3 overstates the extent of this massacre, but even if a few less mistakes had been made by Team USA, the eye test said that Team USA was way below Team Europe in pedigree. Europe won eighteen more racks than Team USA, which left little doubt about the size of the gap. Put another way, Europe won over 58% of the racks played. Put a third way, even with a game on the wire in every match, Team USA would have still lost this Mosconi by 8-6. No contest!

Europe is Building for the Future, America is Not
For me, personally, the most unpleasant takeaway from this year’s Mosconi is that Europe built for the future with two twenty-something rookies getting their first taste of the Mosconi Cup. Europe is laying the foundation for future Mosconi Cup success while America is not. Hence, the future for Team USA looks at least as bleak as the present.

Let us not be delusional. Europe might well have won if they had fielded the under-25 team of Moritz Neuhausen, Kledio Kaci, Mickey Krause, Jonas Souto, and Szymon Kural, each of them Fargo 792 or better and each Top 100 in the world based on Fargo. Europe continues to develop many great young players, while America produces few.

The Fan Experience
As always, the fan experience was great. Nobody sets up an arena as well as Matchroom! The vibe at the event was electric and the camaraderie among the attending fans was patently obvious. The music was great, which is a given at the Mosconi.

For those that had VIP tickets, the dinner buffet was very nice and the room in which it took place was impressive. Alexandra Palace is a great arena, but getting there and getting home from there is not so easy. Still, Matchroom calls the Mosconi Cup “the biggest party in pool” and that is exactly what it is.

As usual, Emily Frazer was a most welcoming hostess, making a sincere effort to mix with many of the attendees.

European Fans
They were enthusiastic and sometimes rowdy but, with rare exception, they kept it tasteful. They could have easily sought retribution in the wake of the pathetic behavior of American fans at the 2024 Mosconi, but did not. Whether the 2026 American fans in Orlando return to civility is to be determined, but it can no longer be suggested that the European fans are less respectful of the players than American fans. For now, the opposite is true.

Referees
I was very disappointed with the referees in 2024 as they often tolerated unruly, sometimes profane, fan behavior even while players were down over the shot. This year, they made sure to rein in any fans that got out of line while players were over the shot and it added greatly to the competitive integrity of the event. Let us add that few, if any, poor calls were made by the referees. Well done!

Overall
This Mosconi reinforced just how far apart the US and Europe are as cueists. If Team USA in 2026 is unchanged from the last two years, unless Team Europe brings its “C” game, another massacre is likely. I will not knock the Team USA players. They are true professionals who gave it their best and conducted themselves admirably and with good sportsmanship, but I am sure that even they realize how far behind Europe they have fallen.

How to Fix It
Team USA needs to go young sooner rather than later. Why not bring in one or more of Lukas Verner, Lazaro Martinez, Sam Henderson, Nathan Childress, Eric Roberts, and Payne McBride (I am probably forgetting someone) and develop our best young players to build for the future. In my opinion, they have all shown great promise.

If we steadfastly refuse to go young, perhaps it is time to expand participation to include all the Americas, including Canada, USA, Mexico, Central America, and South America, which could bring the likes of Alex Pagulayan, John Morra, Jesus Atencio and Gerson Martinez into play.

Summation
The Mosconi Cup remains a great, entertaining event, but something must be done to make it more competitive. This year’s formula of bringing back a Team USA that was manhandled in 2024 on home soil almost guaranteed failure. At the very least, we all deserve a new edition of Team USA.

I hope we, in America, will not be delusional about this result. What might have been is irrelevant. The result was not about poor preparation, poor coaching, or poor mental game. It was not about poor lagging or poor breaking. It was about substandard decision making and poor execution of the shots.

Remediation must take place in the practice room. Unless one believes that Europeans are more naturally gifted at pool than Americans, they cannot deny that European cueists are outworking American ones, and they have the results to prove it.

Well played, Europe, but for America, it is time to regroup.
Great write up. Having just sat through it can you point to one thing in periocular that was lacking in the American play?
I only saw a hand full of matches but usa seemed to fall short when it came to safety play and kicking. In these short matches one safety can turn a match around.

Perhaps the American approach and philosophy to the game is just different. I don't see that changing. I don't think many American players live and die dreaming about the Mosconi cup.
Quite honestly, why should they.
 
Great write up. Having just sat through it can you point to one thing in periocular that was lacking in the American play?
I only saw a hand full of matches but usa seemed to fall short when it came to safety play and kicking. In these short matches one safety can turn a match around.

Perhaps the American approach and philosophy to the game is just different. I don't see that changing. I don't think many American players live and die dreaming about the Mosconi cup.
Quite honestly, why should they.
In my opinion, the fundamentals are the main difference and where the Americans are lacking.
Look at the stance, the stroke and the body movement of the Americans and Europeans and you'll see the differences.
The American fundamentals might have been good enough for 5 inch pockets but they are not solid enough for 4 inch pockets.
And then there is the mental game and composure.
The European fundamentals and metal composure are closer to snooker than to American classics fundamentals.

Of course to get to these fundamentals and mental games, it comes down again to the mentality and attitude to the game. Sports vs. pastime/gambling game.
 
In my opinion, the fundamentals are the main difference and where the Americans are lacking.
Look at the stance, the stroke and the body movement of the Americans and Europeans and you'll see the differences.
The American fundamentals might have been good enough for 5 inch pockets but they are not solid enough for 4 inch pockets.
And then there is the mental game and composure.
The European fundamentals and metal composure are closer to snooker than to American classics fundamentals.

Of course to get to these fundamentals and mental games, it comes down again to the mentality and attitude to the game. Sports vs. pastime/gambling game.
The USA players are pretty much outclassed in every aspect of the game. Only Shane and Fedor are up to speed with all the foreign players.
 
Those players came to America in a different era of pool. You see less European players today making such a move.
What I meant was not about local tournaments but more bigger events, you will see more up and coming European players traveling to major events than American players at the same level. This experience contributes quite a lot to the progression and growth of a player.
My guess remains that America offers far more pro events than Europe, and I do not mean local events. Take Fedor Gorst in 2022. Without leaving the United States and banned by WPA from both the Matchroom and WPA sanctioned majors (even those contested in the USA), he still managed to earn about $250,000 in prize money and finished second on the AZB money list. It was possible because America has a continual array of significant events. The difference between Fedor and the rest of the American players is that Fedor showed up to all these events, while others who had the chance did not. Can a pool player earn $250,000 in a calendar year without leaving Europe and sitting out all the majors?

As for the travel, I think this has been going on for about twenty years. Americans, as a group, have paid a price for not playing the worldwide pool calendar to the extent needed to reach the highest heights of the game. If I looked hard enough, I could probably find one of my posts on the subject from twenty years ago that would say the same.

Europe also have the Eurotour which is a pro tour, something that the USA doesn't have. Sometimes a Eurotour events fall on the same date as another major event and the top European players are absent, then you get to see how deep the Euro talents goes with so many great players that we don't know yet present top level pool. This something that kids in Europe grow up into.
Great point. The absence of a national tour in America has contributed to the lack of development of young emerging players in America. Realistically, the UPA, which hasn't been around since 2007, was the last important national tour in the US, and before that, the PBT, which folded in 1999.

Thanks to the growing presence of Matchroom ranking events in the past two years alone, I think things have changed for the better as far as opportunities for development. There are over ten Matchroom ranking events in the United States now, with additions in Seattle, Jacksonville in 2025. At long last, the emerging American pro can play in events having world class fields on US soil.
If we look at Fargo rating to try and find the next generation of top pros, how many under 30 players with rating of 750-799 are there from Europe and how many are from the USA?
I dealt with some of this in my initial post. The most damning stat is that, as of December 3, the day the Mosconi Cup began, Europe had five players under 25 years old that were ranked in the Fargo Top 100 in Moritz Neuhausen, Kledio Kaci, Jonas Souto, Szymon Kural and Mickey Krause. All five are Fargo 792+. We all know that Yannick Pongers and Felix Vogel are going to be elite pros, too. The top American under-25 player by Fargo is Lukas Verner, who is, I believe, in the 760s.
I'm sure that if we had a second level Mosconi cup with players like Lukas Verner, Lazaro Martinez, Sam Henderson, Nathan Childress, Eric Roberts, and Payne McBride, vs a European team of similar status, the Europeans will still beat the USA
Agreed 100%. The imbalance in the talent pool is substantial no matter what level you look at. Even if Team Europe were restricted to players whose names begin with "K", they could field the formidable team of Kledio Kaci, Eklent Kaci, Szymon Kural, Mickey Krause and Stefan Kasper (all five in the Fargo Top 100). At the 2025 Mosconi, Team USA featured two players outside the Fargo Top 100. Enough said.

Again, thanks for a great post. I agree with nearly all of what you have said.
 
In my opinion, the fundamentals are the main difference and where the Americans are lacking.
Look at the stance, the stroke and the body movement of the Americans and Europeans and you'll see the differences.
The American fundamentals might have been good enough for 5 inch pockets but they are not solid enough for 4 inch pockets.
And then there is the mental game and composure.
The European fundamentals and metal composure are closer to snooker than to American classics fundamentals.

Of course to get to these fundamentals and mental games, it comes down again to the mentality and attitude to the game. Sports vs. pastime/gambling game.
The old time American loosy goosey style of play doesn't work anymore. With all due respect, Keith's, style of play or Ronnie Allen and so on would have trouble playing these robotic players with short races and time limits.

When gambling you don't put a lot of value on any one game or shot. Your not playing against a clock. Historically, many great players did not do well in tournaments and the sudden death nature on a tournament match.

Gambling with no time limits mistakes are not as critical. In fact I have sweated many big money matches and both players are fairly relaxed in their confidence they are going to be the winner, it is just a matter of time.

I think I prefer that smooth style of play of, Ray Martin, Mosconi, Miz and so on, over the"Going to the electric chair" type of play you often see today.

Back in the day Mike Sigel may have been close to today's robotic players. He was very mithodical in his play. It may have been his edge back then. He never took anything for granted and his record reflects it.

I am starting to sound like an old man saying "Back in my day". To be honest though, watching today's players, while you can appreciate their precision and play I enjoy it much less.
Jmo
 
My guess remains that America offers far more pro events than Europe, and I do not mean local events. Take Fedor Gorst in 2022. Without leaving the United States and banned by WPA from both the Matchroom and WPA sanctioned majors (even those contested in the USA), he still managed to earn about $250,000 in prize money and finished second on the AZB money list. It was possible because America has a continual array of significant events. The difference between Fedor and the rest of the American players is that Fedor showed up to all these events, while others who had the chance did not. Can a pool player earn $250,000 in a calendar year without leaving Europe and sitting out all the majors?

As for the travel, I think this has been going on for about twenty years. Americans, as a group, have paid a price for not playing the worldwide pool calendar to the extent needed to reach the highest heights of the game. If I looked hard enough, I could probably find one of my posts on the subject from twenty years ago that would say the same.


Great point. The absence of a national tour in America has contributed to the lack of development of young emerging players in America. Realistically, the UPA, which hasn't been around since 2007, was the last important national tour in the US, and before that, the PBT, which folded in 1999.

Thanks to the growing presence of Matchroom ranking events in the past two years alone, I think things have changed for the better as far as opportunities for development. There are over ten Matchroom ranking events in the United States now, with additions in Seattle, Jacksonville in 2025. At long last, the emerging American pro can play in events having world class fields on US soil.

I dealt with some of this in my initial post. The most damning stat is that, as of December 3, the day the Mosconi Cup began, Europe had five players under 25 years old that were ranked in the Fargo Top 100 in Moritz Neuhausen, Kledio Kaci, Jonas Souto, Szymon Kural and Mickey Krause. All five are Fargo 792+. We all know that Yannick Pongers and Felix Vogel are going to be elite pros, too. The top American under-25 player by Fargo is Lukas Verner, who is, I believe, in the 760s.

Agreed 100%. The imbalance in the talent pool is substantial no matter what level you look at. Even if Team Europe were restricted to players whose names begin with "K", they could field the formidable team of Kledio Kaci, Eklent Kaci, Szymon Kural, Mickey Krause and Stefan Kasper (all five in the Fargo Top 100). At the 2025 Mosconi, Team USA featured two players outside the Fargo Top 100. Enough said.

Again, thanks for a great post. I agree with nearly all of what you have said.
There is no doubt that there is more money in the USA and it is an incentive to come and play in the USA. But the road to become good enough to win that money starts in Europe. The fundamentals and mental game young Euro players develops during their first 10 years as teens learning the game is far beyond what most American players develop. A European player has a better chance to win that that money.
 
There is no doubt that there is more money in the USA and it is an incentive to come and play in the USA. But the road to become good enough to win that money starts in Europe. The fundamentals and mental game young Euro players develops during their first 10 years as teens learning the game is far beyond what most American players develop. A European player has a better chance to win that that money.
It may be the snooker background they have. In fact they all look like snooker players fundementaly.
 
I am starting to sound like an old man saying "Back in my day". To be honest though, watching today's players, while you can appreciate their precision and play I enjoy it much less.
Jmo
The flamboyant type of play of "old school" pool is no doubt more enjoyable to watch BUT we live and play and compete today, with today's equipment, rules and competition and players need to adjust if they want to win.

In the USA, most bar tables and pool halls still offer 5inch pockets and easy tables so the move from amateur to pro is harder, In Europe amateurs play on the same equipment like pros, it's an easier transition as you adopt a more strict fundamentals and type of play from the beginning.
 
The flamboyant type of play of "old school" pool is no doubt more enjoyable to watch BUT we live and play and compete today, with today's equipment, rules and competition and players need to adjust if they want to win.

In the USA, most bar tables and pool halls still offer 5inch pockets and easy tables so the move from amateur to pro is harder, In Europe amateurs play on the same equipment like pros, it's an easier transition as you adopt a more strict fundamentals and type of play from the beginning.
In business it's called, "Evolve or die". It is a fundamental fact that can't be ignored if you want to survive. Rules change, equipment changes you have to change with it.
 
There is no doubt that there is more money in the USA and it is an incentive to come and play in the USA. But the road to become good enough to win that money starts in Europe. The fundamentals and mental game young Euro players develops during their first 10 years as teens learning the game is far beyond what most American players develop. A European player has a better chance to win that that money.
For the most part, I agree, but part of the equation is that the coaches in Europe have done a much better job of training emerging talent than American coaches.
 
In my opinion, the fundamentals are the main difference and where the Americans are lacking.
Look at the stance, the stroke and the body movement of the Americans and Europeans and you'll see the differences.
Here, we disagree. The gap between Europe and America in decision making is as great as the gap in fundamentals. The problem is even bigger than you suggest.
The American fundamentals might have been good enough for 5 inch pockets but they are not solid enough for 4 inch pockets.
And then there is the mental game and composure.
Agreed, the tightening of the pockets has exposed some of the holes in American stroke fundamentals, but equally important is that the tighter pockets have heightened the importance of defense and strategic play, two other areas in which America has fallen behind the rest of the world.
The European fundamentals and metal composure are closer to snooker than to American classics fundamentals.

Of course to get to these fundamentals and mental games, it comes down again to the mentality and attitude to the game. Sports vs. pastime/gambling game.
Agreed but, as noted, it also comes down to the coaching and developmental programs.
 
Here, we disagree. The gap between Europe and America in decision making is as great as the gap in fundamentals. The problem is even bigger than you suggest.

Agreed, the tightening of the pockets has exposed some of the holes in American stroke fundamentals, but equally important is that the tighter pockets have heightened the importance of defense and strategic play, two other areas in which America has fallen behind the rest of the world.

Agreed but, as noted, it also comes down to the coaching and developmental programs.
You said that several times. Who are these coaches and where are these development programs? I've just seen pool players going to pool rooms and play. I've never been at a tournament and seen a player with an Entourage a coach trainer or whatever.
 
only (some of) the UK players and one albanian have snooker background.. most grow up playing on american 9ft tables in commercial pool rooms
That's true but the players have proceeded them do have snooker backgrounds and that's what probably influences them. Their style of play rooted in snooker has become the norm.
I'm not saying that's good or bad, it's probably good. But it is noticeable.
 
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Fargo cap tournaments are also a huge part of the problem.

How are players supposed to develop when they get banned from tournaments?

If I was Matchroom, I would buy Fargo and abolish it.
 
That's true but the players have proceeded them do have snooker backgrounds and that's you probably influences them. Their style of play rooted in snooker has become the norm.
I'm not saying that's good or bad, it's probably good. But it is noticeable.

could be. appleton, melling and mark gray (gray was top ranked in eurotour many years) possibly had an influence, also watching snooker on eurosport may have had an influence. i think fundamentals in general got better already in the late 90's though, also for american players, so it's probably been gradual
 
For the most part, I agree, but part of the equation is that the coaches in Europe have done a much better job of training emerging talent than American coaches.
SHAW this on FB....Windows Open comment from Jason.
''Pay me double I promise I can make that team win I know what to do''
What does that mean, he'll coach the usa? :)
 
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