Tougher tables did not help USA pros for 20 years

SUPERSTAR said:
I don't think the tighter pockets have anything to do with it. At least in pool rooms. When it comes to practice.

You go to the local pool room, without a doubt, THE TIGHTEST TABLES IN THE ROOM, HAVE THE ABSOLUTE WORST PLAYERS ON IT, playing one pocket or 9ball with 20 innings per game. LIKE THEY ARE CHALLENGING THEMSELVES ON HOW BAD THEY SUCK.
This is absolutely everywhere and as far as I am concerned, the standard.
So much so, that I think good players just don't even bother with tight equipment. Especially given the fact that no one wants to deal with garbage players who gatekeep the tight tables if you end up with a game wanting you to pay their table time to get off the table or wanting to finish their game that takes another hour.

If the entire room had 4' tight pockets, that's a different story, but where does that happen?
And 4' tight pockets with diamonds and that extra shelf is a total snoozefest to watch. By far, the stupidest pool I have ever watched. And no, I'm not talking about new cloth. I'm talking bout the other 51 weeks of the year that the cloth is old.

No dynamic creative aggressive pool play.
Pool players dribbling balls in the hole and winners being determined by who hung up the ball in the pockets more than their opponents, on shots that need some pace for position that literally can't go.

I think American pool players are in their own little world where the majority feel world class, but don't put in the time. Especially when you don't have to practice or prove yourself because you know your buddy is going to pick you anyway. 👀
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Back in the day, no proper room operator would let the worst players hog the best tables. You might recall, at ‘Ames’, the table Gleason & Newman initially played on had been kept covered.
 
DynoDan said:
Back in the day, no proper room operator would let the worst players hog the best tables. You might recall, at ‘Ames’, the table Gleason & Newman initially played on had been kept covered.
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Yep, this was true in both rooms in which I came up through the ranks.
The money table was for top players only. It had tighter pockets and the only time casual players were allowed on it is when all other tables were full and no pool players were in the room.
 
garczar said:
The number of US players actively/avidly playing on 9ft tables has been dropping for years. Our inability to beat Euros/Asians/etc has nothing to do with the size of the pockets.
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I agree. Part of that problem is likely the difficulty in finding a local place that has 9 footers. The rural junior college where I learned to play in the early 1970s had a couple GC1 and a snooker table, but even back then it would have been at least a 100 mile drive to play on a different one. With all the halls closing it is likely worse these days. 7 footers are popular with bar owners because they take up a lot less floor space and they are coin op. Many of the bars I've been in don't have room for even a single 9.

I recently moved but still no local 9 footers. Griff's is now an hour away so I'll be heading there once in a while and visiting a few pro tournaments.
 
no, i agree. it isnt about tight pockets vs loose ones, but they do make some difference depending on the players and how they respond to them.

and that is one of the very few things that someone can do something about. namely adjusting to the difference in how you play. and there is a difference.
to think not, is wrong. and all top players should be able to adjust. but they are still people and don't always do the right thing.

like also staying in shape. that does matter. just look how buddy and steve's games depreciated along with their weight gains.

face it, unless we devote big resources to developing a top team with someones money, then our pool culture which is changing will not help.
 
Protractor said:
I agree. Part of that problem is likely the difficulty in finding a local place that has 9 footers. The rural junior college where I learned to play in the early 1970s had a couple GC1 and a snooker table, but even back then it would have been at least a 100 mile drive to play on a different one. With all the halls closing it is likely worse these days. 7 footers are popular with bar owners because they take up a lot less floor space and they are coin op. Many of the bars I've been in don't have room for even a single 9.

I recently moved but still no local 9 footers. Griff's is now an hour away so I'll be heading there once in a while and visiting a few pro tournaments.
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I have recurring dreams about stumbling across a local poolroom with quality pro equipment that is still open. It usually involves my entry into a strange/unrelated building, and then I hear the unmistakable sound of clicking billiard balls in an adjoining room 😁.
 
DynoDan said:
I have recurring dreams about stumbling across a local poolroom with quality pro equipment that is still open. It usually involves my entry into a strange/unrelated building, and then I hear the unmistakable sound of clicking billiard balls in an adjoining room 😁.
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Five minutes from my apt. lie 10 very nice GC4's with good Simonis for 5bux/hr. Not a dream but reality.
 
This weekend I played in a one pocket tournament at Railyard in Louisville on Diamonds with 4.25" pockets and I'm here to tell you, based upon first hand experience, that it's a different ballgame if you're not accustomed to those size pockets.

Your strategy has to be different and your technique has got to be *far* more precise. I play on a Diamond with tough 4.5" pockets and I'm here to tell you the game is different when you lose that 1/4".

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
This weekend I played in a one pocket tournament at Railyard in Louisville on Diamonds with 4.25" pockets and I'm here to tell you, based upon first hand experience, that it's a different ballgame if you're not accustomed to those size pockets.

Your strategy has to be different and your technique has got to be *far* more precise. I play on a Diamond with tough 4.5" pockets and I'm here to tell you the game is different when you lose that 1/4".

Lou Figueroa
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Lou, is that the same tourney that was streamed this weekend on XPOOL? I saw Dave playing some champion and the table definitely looked tough.
 
"The Euros attend pool schools from a young age- strokes are totally honed for those that stay into their late teens. Euros play in " pool clubs" where they are highly competitive but supportive of each other and the game - so they stay with it much longer - in America, every time you walked in a pool hall- somebody was trying to rob you/ hustle you - people get tired of that real fast and move on to other sports/games/interests."

So true. I know people here like to rail on 7ft tables, leagues, caps, and all that stuff. I feel there is a perspective being left out. You hear people say those things I mentioned are ruining pool and people just need to get better. Here is the perspective, What if they don't want to get better? Meaning, what if the largest group of pool players in this country (USA) play pool for fun. They use it as a time to go hang out with their friends and play a sport they love, knowing full well they have a ceiling, which for many is very low. That group of people far outnumber the people that do want to get better and will practice, take lessons, invest in good equipment, play against better players, etc. Its the same in golf. How many people on a given weekend at a golf course are just there to drink beer and hang out with their friends vs trying to break 80? Here is another perspective. That group of "casual players" that some talk bad about are the reason pool rooms stay in business. The reason pool companies can sponsor tournaments and players. If we greatly decrease that number by doing some of the stuff i hear suggested, it would be even worse.

I saw a comment online that makes a lot of sense. American pool players practice. European players train. I agree with others that say the mindset is different. Team USA has proven they have the firepower to win, but just don't finish.
 
The poolroom slump seems to be coming to an end with more new rooms opening in the last year then in the prior ten years. For the naysayers it can be done and you don't have to own the building. There is lots of vacant space in industrial areas, and it's a buyers/renters market. You don't have to be on a main street! Build it and they will come!

There are beautiful and successful poolrooms operating all over the country. Maybe not nearly as many as before, but they are out there. And there's room for more. If I was a younger man I would do it again right now! The magic formula is no different than before. Give the people what they want for a fair price and they will come. Good music, sports on TV, nice pool tables, some other games like foosball, darts etc., good pizza and other finger food, beer and wine is fine. Work hard, make money. What's wrong with that?

Nobody wants to stay cooped up in their house playing video games and watching netflix day and night. Give them a nice place to go and have a good time, then watch what happens.

One more thing that I noticed in my previous rooms, where I had both big tables and barboxes. Even amateurs preferred playing on the real pool tables. The barboxes were more for the beer drinkers and for league players.
 
sjm said:
Not on board with this line of reasoning. In 2005, most of the top players in pro pool were still American. Entering the 21st century, only a handful of Europeans were full-time players of American pool. Among them were Ortmann, Souquet, Feijen, Lely, Chamat, and Immonen, and nearly none of the others traveled to America to compete. In all the major pool events, the fields before 2000 featured very few Europeans.

The watershed moment came in 2000 when Matchroom, which produced only the Mosconi Cup and the World Pool Masters at the time, made its first ever move into large-scale tournament pool, producing the World 9ball in Cardiff for 2000-2003. Although the Euro-tour had existed since 1992, for many Europeans, and I have spoken with some of them over the years, this is when American pool came into full view among European cueists. In 2004, the World 9ball moved to Asia, but Europe's interest in American pool had been piqued, and from 2005-15, the number of Europeans playing American pool skyrocketed. From 2015-25, the game became increasingly global, and there are now great players in every corner of the globe.

Americans dominated at American pool prior to 2005, to some extent, because they were the ones playing it. While there is no denying that pocket size figures in the equation, attributing America's fall from grace to the tightening of the pockets is missing the boat. Everyone plays 9ball now, and the American domination seen prior to 2005 may never be seen again.
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I think this is exactly correct along with Jay's post above it. It's so sad that "good enough" is not just about pool, it's part of the US culture for at least the last couple generations. The pass down of knowledge and understanding of hard work just isn't here anymore. To make matters worse, all these handicap tourney's using fargo in the US are just terrible, to clarify that, terrible for developing strong players. Big money events can be won with just a good enough spot, yuk. Players are punished for putting in long hours of work and not sand bagging the system while the no good doer's reap the benefits. It's such a bad example for the next generation.

ok rant done... carry on all and have a nice day ;)
 
JolietJames said:
Yep, this was true in both rooms in which I came up through the ranks.
The money table was for top players only. It had tighter pockets and the only time casual players were allowed on it is when all other tables were full and no pool players were in the room.
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Absolutely true - only the table next to the front desk was reserved for the best players and, many times, it had a pocket shim or 2!
 
Could part of the problem be the training that the U.S. boys get when they are younger? As opposed to the training that the Euro boys get?

I've seen alot of the training here in the states. Rolling balls down the table isn't exactly helping much.

r/DCP
 
Varner, Sigel, Miz, etc. Etc. Today very few if any American youth would ever spend the time these guys spent in a pool room in their teenage years - I doubt the game will ever come back here as it once existed post Hustler movie and post COM movie- UNLESS- some magic comes this way again. Any up and coming American youngster may have to spend some time in both Europe and Asia to become world class competitive - that has not happened too often in the past several years.
 
jay helfert said:
The poolroom slump seems to be coming to an end with more new rooms opening in the last year then in the prior ten years. For the naysayers it can be done and you don't have to own the building. There is lots of vacant space in industrial areas, and it's a buyers/renters market. You don't have to be on a main street! Build it and they will come!

There are beautiful and successful poolrooms operating all over the country. Maybe not nearly as many as before, but they are out there. And there's room for more. If I was a younger man I would do it again right now! The magic formula is no different than before. Give the people what they want for a fair price and they will come. Good music, sports on TV, nice pool tables, some other games like foosball, darts etc., good pizza and other finger food, beer and wine is fine. Work hard, make money. What's wrong with that?

Nobody wants to stay cooped up in their house playing video games and watching netflix day and night. Give them a nice place to go and have a good time, then watch what happens.

One more thing that I noticed in my previous rooms, where I had both big tables and barboxes. Even amateurs preferred playing on the real pool tables. The barboxes were more for the beer drinkers and for league players.
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I'm hoping you're right, but in MSP the last pool hall to open closed the same summer.

As long as pool doesn't go the way of bowling where a single corp buys out every venue (🖕 Bowlero) then turns it into an "entertainment" venue and prices skyrocket. I get that bowling centers are far more maintenance and space constrained, but i'm sure some would try if the market was there...
 
sudocrushms said:
I'm hoping you're right, but in MSP the last pool hall to open closed the same summer.

As long as pool doesn't go the way of bowling where a single corp buys out every venue (🖕 Bowlero) then turns it into an "entertainment" venue and prices skyrocket. I get that bowling centers are far more maintenance and space constrained, but i'm sure some would try if the market was there...
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810 Bowling and Billiards franchise makes almost no attempt to have the “billiards” part of their name be meaningful inside the establishments. The billiards part of their name is just a cover for 75% of revenue coming from video games. When I lived in Fl. The franchise opened in Estero had the worst space allocated to billiards and horribly set up Brunswick Wolf tables.
 
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