Tougher tables did not help USA pros for 20 years

lfigueroa said:
This weekend I played in a one pocket tournament at Railyard in Louisville on Diamonds with 4.25" pockets and I'm here to tell you, based upon first hand experience, that it's a different ballgame if you're not accustomed to those size pockets.

Your strategy has to be different and your technique has got to be *far* more precise. I play on a Diamond with tough 4.5" pockets and I'm here to tell you the game is different when you lose that 1/4".

Lou Figueroa
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Lou, how many 9 footers are at Railyard? I can't quite recall. I think they had 4? Anyway there are 4 total 9 footers here in Lexington, KY and if there are 4 9 footers in Louisville, then that may be only 8 total 9 footers available to players in KY's two largest cities. And I know that 2 of those here in Lex are junk furniture grade Olhausens, so you might as well say 6 total 9 footers.

The Cue Club in Lexington started out with the top floor full on 7 foot Diamonds and 9 foot Gold Crowns in the basement. Now both floors have 7 footers and only 2 9 foot Diamonds on the first floor. Granted, it's a great, great place to place and the equipment is kept in great condition, but point being the trend is in...7 footers it is. Not a shock, just more confirmation.

As far as I can see, 9 foot pool is dead here in the US.
 
jalapus logan said:
Lou, how many 9 footers are at Railyard? I can't quite recall. I think they had 4? Anyway there are 4 total 9 footers here in Lexington, KY and if there are 4 9 footers in Louisville, then that may be only 8 total 9 footers available to players in KY's two largest cities. And I know that 2 of those here in Lex are junk furniture grade Olhausens, so you might as well say 6 total 9 footers.

The Cue Club in Lexington started out with the top floor full on 7 foot Diamonds and 9 foot Gold Crowns in the basement. Now both floors have 7 footers and only 2 9 foot Diamonds on the first floor. Granted, it's a great, great place to place and the equipment is kept in great condition, but point being the trend is in...7 footers it is. Not a shock, just more confirmation.

As far as I can see, 9 foot pool is dead here in the US.
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There are 8 9' tables at Railyard, one of which is the TV/stream table.

Plus a truckload of 7' tables.

Lou Figueroa
 
jay helfert said:
The poolroom slump seems to be coming to an end with more new rooms opening in the last year then in the prior ten years. For the naysayers it can be done and you don't have to own the building. There is lots of vacant space in industrial areas, and it's a buyers/renters market. You don't have to be on a main street! Build it and they will come!

There are beautiful and successful poolrooms operating all over the country. Maybe not nearly as many as before, but they are out there. And there's room for more. If I was a younger man I would do it again right now! The magic formula is no different than before. Give the people what they want for a fair price and they will come. Good music, sports on TV, nice pool tables, some other games like foosball, darts etc., good pizza and other finger food, beer and wine is fine. Work hard, make money. What's wrong with that?

Nobody wants to stay cooped up in their house playing video games and watching netflix day and night. Give them a nice place to go and have a good time, then watch what happens.

One more thing that I noticed in my previous rooms, where I had both big tables and barboxes. Even amateurs preferred playing on the real pool tables. The barboxes were more for the beer drinkers and for league players.
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I hear this. I just think that the model you describe works best with 7 foot tables. I wish that were not the case, but it is, at least in my city. That's why my club traded out all of the 9 foot gold crowns for 7 foot Diamonds. Dang it.
 
Dimeball said:
I think this is exactly correct along with Jay's post above it. It's so sad that "good enough" is not just about pool, it's part of the US culture for at least the last couple generations. The pass down of knowledge and understanding of hard work just isn't here anymore. To make matters worse, all these handicap tourney's using fargo in the US are just terrible, to clarify that, terrible for developing strong players. Big money events can be won with just a good enough spot, yuk. Players are punished for putting in long hours of work and not sand bagging the system while the no good doer's reap the benefits. It's such a bad example for the next generation.

ok rant done... carry on all and have a nice day ;)
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Yes. Fargo rated handicapped tournies are all that are going in my area. It does de-motivate for sure. Hence, I only played in two all year. Won one, finished middle of the pack in the other. Spotting most of the time, sometimes quite a bit. I'm going hiking more this year. Pool rooms are for casual fun for this guy these days. Wait, then again, has anything changed? 🤪
 
LowRight said:
My point exactly. And why is that? Because the USA no longer cares about pool like it used to. It's a numbers game. The US has fewer people interested in playing pool for a living than Europe, the Philippines, etc. End. Of. Story.

In the first half of the 20th century, pool and billiards were huge in the US. Match results would appear on the front page of newspaper sports sections around the country. Then, television took men out of the poolrooms in the 1950s and they lost interest. We had a renaissance in the 60s and 70s with the release of The Hustler and another in the 80s and 90s with The Color of Money. But, pool in the USA has been on a slow trajectory downward over the past 25 years. Over that time, thank God for Shane is all I can say.

This is not an excuse. It's just the way it is. Want a USA team that can compete with Europe in the Mosconi Cup? Get a lot of Americans interested in the game again. Trust me, if pro players had the opportunity to make a lot of money (on par with the MLB, NBA, NFL, etc.), the incentive would be there. Another huge Hollywood blockbuster or very popular streaming series about pool could do it too. Short of that, don't hold your breath until the next Team USA victory.
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Unfortunately, throwing big money at little interest does not seem like a prudent investment.
 
lfigueroa said:
This weekend I played in a one pocket tournament at Railyard in Louisville on Diamonds with 4.25" pockets and I'm here to tell you, based upon first hand experience, that it's a different ballgame if you're not accustomed to those size pockets.

Your strategy has to be different and your technique has got to be *far* more precise. I play on a Diamond with tough 4.5" pockets and I'm here to tell you the game is different when you lose that 1/4".

Lou Figueroa
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Which, again, leads me to believe that those Pocket Reducers are just about the best training aid going today.

If/When I ever play in another big tournament I am going to practice on those 3.5" pockets a great deal first.
 
LowRight said:
My point exactly. And why is that? Because the USA no longer cares about pool like it used to.
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That's more like it. We still care but we don't care like we used to care. One reason is that the cost of participation was much lower in the days when most of the major pool events were in America. Now that pool has gone global, the fixed costs of participation are daunting, and even the top American pros have skipped far too many of the overseas majors.
LowRight said:
It's a numbers game. The US has fewer people interested in playing pool for a living than Europe, the Philippines, etc. End. Of. Story.
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I doubt that America has fewer cueists than Europe who want to make a career of pro pool. If you have any data that supports this, please share. The real problem is that the many Americans who have chosen this career are developing so poorly.
LowRight said:
This is not an excuse. It's just the way it is. Want a USA team that can compete with Europe in the Mosconi Cup? Get a lot of Americans interested in the game again.
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Yup, that's very important. One of the Catch-22 issues of pool in America is that so many poolrooms are very dependent on alcohol sales to remain financially sustainable. This is part of why the poolroom itself is, far too often, a place that parents will not want their kids to frequent.
LowRight said:
Trust me, if pro players had the opportunity to make a lot of money (on par with the MLB, NBA, NFL, etc.), the incentive would be there.
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This will never happen. Even so, if pool players could make that kind of money, then some of the most elite athletes in America will start choosing pool over some of the other mainstream sports and we would end up living in a world in which the Fargo 800 player is dead money.

Overall you are making a lot of sense here. Nice post.
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
Which, again, leads me to believe that those Pocket Reducers are just about the best training aid going today.

If/When I ever play in another big tournament I am going to practice on those 3.5" pockets a great deal first.
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No, you don't want to do that -- that's entirely different.

Lou Figueroa
 
jalapus logan said:
Yes. Fargo rated handicapped tournies are all that are going in my area. It does de-motivate for sure. Hence, I only played in two all year. Won one, finished middle of the pack in the other. Spotting most of the time, sometimes quite a bit. I'm going hiking more this year. Pool rooms are for casual fun for this guy these days. Wait, then again, has anything changed? 🤪
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Why all the complaining about Fargo rated handicap tournaments???? Everybody handicaps Action matches its called getting spotted!! Theres nobody thats every played Pool that hasn't asked for or been asked for a spot, NOBODY!! So get over the Fargo thing and play!
 
lfigueroa said:
No, you don't want to do that -- that's entirely different.

Lou Figueroa
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I meant practice making shots. Not position play. You can't really play with those Pocket Reducers on. About all you can do is practice shots.

I believe, however, in the past I have seen videos of people that have modified the Pocket Reducers so you can actually play with them on.

r/DCP
 
what sent pool into the dumps in the u.s. is the opening of casinos all over. pool players took to them in droves and keep themselves broke and out of action.

also many took up poker where you had a chance of winning more and had constant action.

the young players had internet and phones to entertain them and were more social which doesn't fit into pool.

we have had some resurgence with leagues but most of those are occasional players and bangers from what ive seen.
 
King T said:
Why all the complaining about Fargo rated handicap tournaments???? Everybody handicaps Action matches its called getting spotted!! Theres nobody thats every played Pool that hasn't asked for or been asked for a spot, NOBODY!! So get over the Fargo thing and play!
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Might as well I guess. Giving a spot and winning feels great. Getting a spot and losing is, well, uh, humbling lol
 
maha said:
what sent pool into the dumps in the u.s. is the opening of casinos all over. pool players took to them in droves and keep themselves broke and out of action.

also many took up poker where you had a chance of winning more and had constant action.

the young players had internet and phones to entertain them and were more social which doesn't fit into pool.

we have had some resurgence with leagues but most of those are occasional players and bangers from what ive seen.
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I think you gotta figure in the real estate nazis. All upscale.
 
fjk said:
At my last job, one of my colleagues was from the Philippines. Of course, I had to ask him if he played pool. While he didn't play, he said his parents were good friends with Efren. I asked him what he believed was the reason why there's a disproportionate number of great pool players from the Philippines. He equated it to two reasons:
  1. They have a gambling culture. He said they love to gamble and they gamble on everything. He said even little kids bring change with them when they go to the park so they could gamble on whatever they played.
  2. He said they are mostly very poor, so when they do gamble, they play their guts outs because they have next to no money. I guess this goes along with your point. Being hungry and broke would make you motivated to practice and win.
I think we've become fat and lazy.
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Similar to what you stated I heard Johnny Archer say that the Philipino players are better because the Money means more?? Well as broke as most of the Pool players are in the USA it should mean as much to them as anybody. And poverty doesn't explain the amount of great players from all the other country's.
 
King T said:
Similar to what you stated I heard Johnny Archer say that the Philipino players are better because the Money means more?? Well as broke as most of the Pool players are in the USA it should mean as much to them as anybody. And poverty doesn't explain the amount of great players from all the other country's.
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Not just more corazon but probably the gumption to learn pool and just as important, how and what one needs to learn.
 
King T said:
Why all the complaining about Fargo rated handicap tournaments???? Everybody handicaps Action matches its called getting spotted!! Theres nobody thats every played Pool that hasn't asked for or been asked for a spot, NOBODY!! So get over the Fargo thing and play!
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Circling back to this. It's not that I bemoan Fargo tournaments in general. It's that I want more opportunities to play in open tournaments. Open tournaments are more rewarding to me for sure. I understand that they are harder to win and cash in. Could pay deeper to encourage participation? Not that I care, I just want more opportunities for heads up play. There are only 3 open tournaments all year in my city. That is too few. That is all.
 
King T said:
Similar to what you stated I heard Johnny Archer say that the Philipino players are better because the Money means more?? Well as broke as most of the Pool players are in the USA it should mean as much to them as anybody. And poverty doesn't explain the amount of great players from all the other country's.
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Having lived in the Phillipines, I can tell you that being "broke" there is NOTHING like being broke in the USA.

In the USA, if you are broke you maybe can go sleep over at someone's house or get some kind of public assistance.

In the Philippines, the people who are around you are broker than you are and public assistance doesn't exist.
 
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