Was pool better 50 years ago?

[middleofnowhere]

I think it's kind of sad, Stu. I mean, what if 50 years from now, football teams from Singapore, Albania, Iraq, Vietnam, Lithuania, Bosnia, Hungary, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Serbia, Spain, Poland, Taiwan, Scotland, Greece, Austria, Russia and Estonia, all play (American) football better than the teams in the NFL? Do you think anyone in the US would still be watching the NFL? Why would they, if the best teams are from somewhere across the ocean?

Maybe that's why no one in the US watches pool these days. It's not "our" sport, anymore.

I think you identified why I don't watch anymore. I have no idea who they are and there are so many of them. Not to mention I don't enjoy watching their style of play. What's left, I stopped watching. Not sure what would bring me back.

 

[sjm]

I think it's kind of sad, Stu. I mean, what if 50 years from now, football teams from Singapore, Albania, Iraq, Vietnam, Lithuania, Bosnia, Hungary, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Serbia, Spain, Poland, Taiwan, Scotland, Greece, Austria, Russia and Estonia, all play (American) football better than the teams in the NFL? Do you think anyone in the US would still be watching the NFL? Why would they, if the best teams are from somewhere across the ocean?

Maybe that's why no one in the US watches pool these days. It's not "our" sport, anymore.

Great post. There's no question that the decline in America's standing in the world of pro pool is, for some, a reason to view the past more favorably than the present. For me, I've never been much of a pool patriot, more inclined to enjoy great play regardless of who is producing it.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Great post. There's no question that the decline in America's standing in the world of pro pool is, for some, a reason to view the past more favorably than the present. For me, I've never been much of a pool patriot, more inclined to enjoy great play regardless of who is producing it.

"Great play" is when the match is "enjoyable" to watch, not necessarily a match where two robots perform flawlessly in a sterile environment.

I prefer the more "raw" play where players with "personality" play "fast and loose" and there is "interaction" between the players besides the handshake at the beginning and end of the match.

 

[kling&allen]

It can probably be looked up but I think Kelly's real last name with something like a Zingle. I got to know him a little bit and learned quite a bit about ball spinning.

He used to do that one thing in front of an audience where he would pocket I think all 15 balls in the corner pocket and like 20 minutes or something. And the audience would keep track of the time.

He was so good at it as the time was running out there would be a few balls left and just as time ran out with maybe three or four seconds left he'd make the last ball. He did it every time.

I used to do one of his tricks where you rack up 15 balls and throwing the cue ball three rails or more make the eight out of the middle of the rack. I got to where I could bet on 10 but usually got it done in five to seven throws.

Cue Ball Kelly: Witness to the 20th Century's Greatest Players - Pool History

The colorful Carl "Cue Ball Kelly" Zingale stood witness to much of 20th Century pool history, including matches featuring some of its greatest players like Greenleaf, Mosconi, Lassiter and others.

poolhistory.com

 

[sjm]

"Great play" is when the match is "enjoyable" to watch, not necessarily a match where two robots perform flawlessly in a sterile environment.

I prefer the more "raw" play where players with "personality" play "fast and loose" and there is "interaction" between the players besides the handshake at the beginning and end of the match.

Much truth in this. I have often commented on this very forum that the switch to four-inch pockets, an overcompensation for the amazing cueing skills of this generation of players has, at least to a point, robbed 9ball of its fast and loose nature.

Nonetheless, the in-match interaction to which you refer was the exception and not the rule fifty years ago, just as it is today.

I'd call Alex Pagulayan, whose career is still in progress. the most entertaining player that I have ever watched. Good luck finding a comparable entertainer from the golden age of pool.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Much truth in this. I have often commented on this very forum that the switch to four-inch pockets, an overcompensation for the amazing cueing skills of this generation of players has, at least to a point, robbed 9ball of its fast and loose nature.

Nonetheless, the in-match interaction to which you refer was the exception and not the rule fifty years ago, just as it is today.

I'd call Alex Pagulayan, whose career is still in progress. the most entertaining player that I have ever watched. Good luck finding a comparable entertainer from the golden age of pool.

Alex, Earl, Keith, Ronnie Allen, Mike Sigel...there were more than a few.

 

[middleofnowhere]

Cue Ball Kelly: Witness to the 20th Century's Greatest Players - Pool History

The colorful Carl "Cue Ball Kelly" Zingale stood witness to much of 20th Century pool history, including matches featuring some of its greatest players like Greenleaf, Mosconi, Lassiter and others.

poolhistory.com

Nice article. When I knew him in the early 70s I don't think I realized how old he was. He was pretty spray.

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

I didn't have time to read through this entire thread so perhaps this has already been mentioned.

On one of the Accu-Stats DVDs from the Sands Regency Tournament in Reno back in the 1990s Buddy Hall was talking about how players of today don't really have the flair like they used to have. The color and personalities are missing. Jersey Red, Cornbread Red, Fats, Willie, etc, etc.

r/DCP

 

[Brookeland Bill]

Pool was bigger 50 years ago, as there was no internet, hi-tech video games, social media, email, texting, online pornography. Pool was recreation, and every town had a Pool Room.

Plus there were only two sexes 50 years ago, Male & Female, there was no third SEX……………..I Call Confused.

Then Jethro you never heard of Ann Mayes from Houston.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Then Jethro you never heard of Ann Mayes from Houston.

Ann was Richard Anthony Mayes.

For further discussion this topic would be better suited for the NPR forum.

 

[markjames]

in the old days, popcorn was so good it didn’t need salt and butter

 

[maha]

its really a mix up.

its no doubt that tournament pool has much better players and players from all over the world. and if you are a tournament buff then that is great for you to watch. have at it.

however for pool in general in the united states we have lost the pool room atmosphere where it was a social event every day to head down and be with the crowd. gamble, talk and whatever.

now all that is gone for most pool rooms and most pool rooms are gone because that crowd is gone and no people inside makes for no money.

thus the up and coming group will be much smaller and will come from overseas where they have less money and things to do instead.

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

Pool was bigger 50 years ago, as there was no internet, hi-tech video games, social media, email, texting, online pornography. Pool was recreation, and every town had a Pool Room.

Plus there were only two sexes 50 years ago, Male & Female, there was no third SEX……………..I Call Confused.

I haven't heard that word for a very long time. It's funny that you said that but in actuality it hold true. The whole 3rd whatever is all BS. Anything that is questionable now, I refer to is "IT" !

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

Only a little less entertaining? Pool is boring as hell now. All the players using the same exact breaking method, all of the time, lol. It seems like they are all copying each other.

And, what is with that stupid looking Cut Break, that all the pros are now doing? What happened to the days of the random power break?

Now, it is all pattern racking, soft breaks, and all players doing exactly the same thing.

It must have been way more exciting, and interesting, back in the 70's.

There might come a time where they have to change and add something to the rules again. Maybe re-spot any balls made on the break. You keep the turn for making the balls though but they have to deal with pocketing the ball on the spot.

 

[sjm]

Alex, Earl, Keith, Ronnie Allen, Mike Sigel...there were more than a few.

Sorry, but these were not the visible players of fifty years ago. Fifty years ago today, the US Open 9ball was having its very first edition and pro pool was still mostly straight pool. Sigel was still primarily an action player that had just turned pro at the time who would hit the competitive mainstream by 1978. I had not even heard of Sigel fifty years ago, let alone seen him. Earl was 14 and had not hit the scene yet. Ronnie Allen was chiefly a one-pocket action player. Based on JAM's posts, Keith was chiefly an action player, too, fifty years ago and would remain such. All of this was long before Youtube, Accu-stats and streamed pool and the action players toiled in obscurity in the backrooms of America. Unlike today, only tournament players enjoyed any real fanfare back then.

It was still the era in which players wore tuxedos in world championships and the game was quite a bit more formal than it is today. There was no event to compare to the Mosconi Cup or the Reyes Cup, events in which players are animated and vocal and crowds go wild and create a party atmosphere in the arena. Pro events had yet to partner with major amateur events, an eventuality that made pro pool highly visible to amateur players. In fact, the BCA and APA leagues did not exist yet.

Off the top of my head, some of the most visible players back then were guys like Ray Martin, Allen Hopkins, Dallas West, Steve Mizerak, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe and Buddy Hall. Every one of them was a great player, but to suggest that they were greater entertainers or more "fast and loose" than today's crop doesn't jive with my observation, and I was attending tournaments even back then.

 

[JAM]

Sorry, but these were not the visible players of fifty years ago. Fifty years ago today, the US Open 9ball was having its very first edition and pro pool was still mostly straight pool. Sigel was still primarily an action player that had just turned pro at the time was about to hit the competitive mainstream by 1978. I had not even heard of Sigel fifty years ago, let alone seen him. Earl was 14 and had not hit the scene yet. Ronnie Allen was chiefly a one-pocket action player. Based on JAM's posts, Keith was chiefly an action player, too, fifty years ago and would remain such. All of this was long before Youtube, Accu-stats and streamed pool and the action players toiled in obscurity in the backrooms of America. Unlike today, only tournament players enjoyed any real fanfare back then.

It was still the era in which players wore tuxedos in world championships and the game was quite a bit more formal than it is today. There was no event to compare to the Mosconi Cup or the Reyes Cup, events in which players are animated and vocal and crowds go wild and create a party atmosphere in the arena. Pro events had yet to partner with major amateur events, an eventuality that made pro pool highly visible to amateur players. In fact, the BCA and APA leagues did not exist yet.

Off the top of my head, some of the most visible players back then were guys like Ray Martin, Allen Hopkins, Dallas West, Steve Mizerak, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe and Buddy Hall. Every one of them was a great player, but to suggest that they were greater entertainers or more "fast and loose" than today's crop doesn't jive with my observation, and I was attending tournaments even back then.

Stu, before I ever met Keith, he traveled the tournament trail religiously. Back then, tournaments weren’t just about trophies. They were gathering places for after-hours action. For players like Keith and his circle, the real games often began when the bleachers emptied.

You’re a pool purist, and you’ve always seen the game a little differently than folks like me, and that's is perfectly okay. You appreciate the quiet geometry, the chess match of patterns, the elegance of a perfect stroke under pressure. Today’s pool, disciplined tournament soldiers playing mum pool, is what brings a pool purist that greatest joy as a pool enthusiast, and I do understand why.

As for personalities, the game still has a few. Alex Pagulayan continues to bring energy and levity wherever he plays. Oi is another colorful character, and Jayson Shaw certainly has personality both on and off the table. But they are exceptions now, not the rule.

Those of us lucky enough to have lived through pool’s golden years saw something different, entertainers as much as champions, people like, well, Keith McCready, Ronnie Allen, Larry Lisciotti, Cornbread Red, Strawberry, Minnesota Fats, Jimmy Mataya, Earl Strickland, Shannon Daulton, Louie Roberts, Dennis Hatch, Jimmy Reid, Grady Mathews, CJ Wiley, Popcorn, Kid Delicious, Allen Hopkins, Ginky, Steve Mizerak. And that’s just off the top of my head. Given more time, I could name a couple dozen more with personality-plus.

The era of what I call "pool's golden years" had something modern pool often lacks: danger, personality, and mythology. What made them different was not only their talent, but their toughness, stamina for 12-hour sessions, emotional control under financial pain, and a killer instinct when blood was in the water. Back then, reputations were earned in cash, not trophies.

So, Stu, you’re in luck. Today pool is exactly where you want it to be in caliber of play, venues, and professionalism. The best tournament players are no longer the most feared money players. It’s a different era, and I hope you enjoy your front-row seat as the game evolves into its next frontier. Modern pool, your cup of tea, is technically superior, thanks to advances in equipment and training. Classic pool, my cup of tea, was culturally superior. Different eras produced different animals, and both deserve respect.

 

[middleofnowhere]

Sorry, but these were not the visible players of fifty years ago. Fifty years ago today, the US Open 9ball was having its very first edition and pro pool was still mostly straight pool. Sigel was still primarily an action player that had just turned pro at the time was about to hit the competitive mainstream by 1978. I had not even heard of Sigel fifty years ago, let alone seen him. Earl was 14 and had not hit the scene yet. Ronnie Allen was chiefly a one-pocket action player. Based on JAM's posts, Keith was chiefly an action player, too, fifty years ago and would remain such. All of this was long before Youtube, Accu-stats and streamed pool and the action players toiled in obscurity in the backrooms of America. Unlike today, only tournament players enjoyed any real fanfare back then.

It was still the era in which players wore tuxedos in world championships and the game was quite a bit more formal than it is today. There was no event to compare to the Mosconi Cup or the Reyes Cup, events in which players are animated and vocal and crowds go wild and create a party atmosphere in the arena. Pro events had yet to partner with major amateur events, an eventuality that made pro pool highly visible to amateur players. In fact, the BCA and APA leagues did not exist yet.

Off the top of my head, some of the most visible players back then were guys like Ray Martin, Allen Hopkins, Dallas West, Steve Mizerak, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe and Buddy Hall. Every one of them was a great player, but to suggest that they were greater entertainers or more "fast and loose" than today's crop doesn't jive with my observation, and I was attending tournaments even back then.

I think you are trying to be to specific timewise. 1981 Sigel was player of the year and had already won like 2 dozen tournaments from a round 74 on.

 

[JAM]

I think you are trying to be to specific timewise. 1981 Sigel was player of the year and had already won like 2 dozen tournaments from a round 74 on.

Sigel most definitely is a tournament soldier, as evidenced by his portfolio of major wins. He also is known in some circles as Mike the Mouth, and there's a reason for that. He definitely had his own unique personality and brought a lot of entertainment, still does, on and off the table. But his other moniker is Captain Hook, and that's his tournament persona because he was capable of hooking anybody in competitions.

 

[mikemosconi]

Dear SJM, garczar, and Middle of Nowhere,

Thanks for the correction on the first name. Of course I meant Carl the referee, not the Champagne Eddy. “Middleofnowhere” is nearly right. The family name was not “Zingle” but, I’m pretty sure, “Zingale.”

“Garczar,”. Yes, I am older than dirt. As for “Onofriooooo…” and “was there electricity then,” yes, there was electricity then. It was generated by waterwheels. The wheels turned as the water came over Niagara Falls. The electricity was useful for lighting pool tables in New York City. So much brighter and cleaner than the hissing gas lights. But of course we still weren’t sure that alternating current was really safe.

Lauri’s youth would have been, I imagine, in Greenleaf’s declining years. He was still around in the late Sixties as an entrant in the straight pool tournaments in New York. By then he was a “spoiler.” One of the top pro’s said of Lauri then, “No, he can’t win the tournament. But you can’t win either if YOU can’t beat HIM.”

Think Jose Parica in height but bald and in a tuxedo and in his late seventies, when the Social Security actuaries were doing their calculations based on sixty-eight as the average life span for an American male. So it was a wonder that he was still a hurdle in big time tournaments.

There was nothing unusual about playing him. Nothing at all…except maybe that if the match stretched into dinner time his wife might come into the room. She was about twice his size dressed all in black, and carried a neatly covered meal on a tray which she would put down on the table next to his chair. And then SHE would sit down and scowl at his opponent with a face that implied some form of malevolent magic. I don’t know if this was her common practice, but I do know she did it at least once during play in the ballroom of The Commodore Hotel. Talk about sharking your opponent! I have been told this also occurred in less formal settings.

According to a report, Lauri died in action. He was playing a straight pool match to one hundred in a pool room. He had something like ninety and had broken the rack nicely. He is supposed to have asked, “How many do I need?” To the answer “Ten,” I have heard that he responded quite clearly, “I don’t think I am going to make it.” The rail was astonished because the out looked easy, and then it was stunned when a few balls later Lauri collapsed. The firehouse across the street was alerted and rushed to help but Onofrio was gone.

If you know the picture of Luther Lassiter stretched out over the table to shoot left handed and using his peculiar right handed bridge, Lauri used to be sitting on the left in that picture, but these days the left side gets cropped out. There was also a fourth player, who coincidentally also died while playing. I can’t remember that player’s name. So the original shot had the player whose name I can’t remember, Lauri, Lassiter, and Irving Crane in the frame. All but Crane died with a cue in their hand.

“Older than dirt” indeed, garczar! On January 31, I’ll be eighty-three. I’ll be celebrating the day at the Derby, where I intend to spend nine days feeling disdain for this present fallen generation.

PS: And I won’t care whether the moving walkway has been fixed or not.

Mike Eufemia died at an exhibition in Crown Billiards in New London Ct - Mike ran hundreds at will in practice - collapsed at the table - in the early 70s I believe.

 

[mikemosconi]

I also think that people here either forget or are too young to remember that 50 years ago and all before that - straight pool was always the most visible pool event to the masses in the U.S. via Wide World of Sports on TV and the major event mostly held in NYC large hotel ball rooms. Johnston City tournament was not a broadcast event.

Major 14.1 events were “sterile” in nature as players were in a Tux, tables were refereed, fan attendees sat in utter silence except for applause occasionally on great shots. You could hear a pin drop in the ballrooms in NYC during play- I attended a few of the events held toward the mid and late 70s in NYC.

Even the 1989 US open 14.1 revival held in Chicago’s Palmer House Hotel( I attended) the players were in a tux and the room was extremely parochial from a game and player behavior standpoint. This was the last one that I recall being so formal. The subsequent events in NYC in the early 90s were much less formal in structure.