Myth or real - Stroke smoothness as a requisite for certain shots

There's another reason that from time immemorial that the instruction has been to have cb contact at the bottom of the pendulum. If the arm is swinging forward, even from just gravity, there is less chance of deceleration. If you strike the ball after the bottom of the pendulum, you have to be actively moving the cue forward to avoid deceleration.
 
ShootingArts said:
Sounds reasonable. The reason I tried to develop a constant speed stroke. Next to impossible, I never succeeded. Using gentle acceleration I developed cue ball control within an inch playing position.

I have to admit that I used precision position play to block myself more often than the other player. Had to let them think they were in the game. They could look at the last game, "If just that one shot had went different..."

A canny road player scouted me for three nights then decided to talk instead of playing. "The first night I thought you were lucky. The second night I still thought it might be luck. Nobody in the world gets as lucky as you three nights in a row." I was only busted a few times in years though.

Smooth acceleration got me pinpoint control to half a cue ball, sometimes a lot less when I deliberately shot into ridiculous gaps or hung myself by a quarter inch or less back before jump cues. I could have still jumped but the idea was to hook myself. Back in the eighties when the cloth was still thicker than today's and my eyes were better I used to be able to rock a ball and get in behind it.

I can't say it is true for everybody but for myself I was much more consistent with a gentle acceleration than trying to hold a constant speed. Constant speed seemed to be the holy grail and I tried very hard to make it work. Thing is that requires a transition between acceleration and a constant speed and was far more difficult than a gradual acceleration.

Hu
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gentle acceleration also means the speed isn't changing much in the area you are attempting to hit so that does work.
 
Jaden said:
There's another reason that from time immemorial that the instruction has been to have cb contact at the bottom of the pendulum. If the arm is swinging forward, even from just gravity, there is less chance of deceleration. If you strike the ball after the bottom of the pendulum, you have to be actively moving the cue forward to avoid deceleration.
Click to expand...

I haven't paid much attention to pro play in years. I have to admit overall level of play for both men pro's and women has improved fairly recently. I notice Allison Fisher is still hanging in there though. She has lost a little bit to top women today but no doubt in my mind that age and eyesight are the major problems. If she was in her prime today I think she would still dominate after watching her matches from 12-25.

Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that almost all pro players hit the ball late. Look at them addressing the cue ball and you will see the forearm is past ninety degrees to the floor or the line of the cue either. Only a slipstroke or a stroke slip will allow a person to hit the cue ball early or at the bottom of the stroke. Ten years ago there might have been a half dozen pro players male or female, that didn't hit the cue ball late in their stroke. Those that didn't had a lot of wrist action with very few exceptions. Jasmin had as perfect a pendulum as I have ever seen when she first came to the pro ranks. I don't know if that is still true.

If I were an instructor I would insist students addressed the cue ball so that the angle between cue stick and forearm was ninety degrees or more at contact of the shot. I don't care what stroke they like, I just want their muscles to still be contracting at the same or a very slightly faster rate as they try to power through the cue ball. Not concerned with what the stick actually does, focusing on what the muscles are doing here.

A major advantage of the slipstroke, your muscles are still contracting when you strike the cue ball assuming your forearm was at roughly ninety degrees when you addressed the cue ball.

A little bit of clarification here. I am considering the angle formed by the points at the tip, grip, and elbow when describing angles.

Hu
 
that is the perfect way for the hit to be. as in all sports people deviate on the best way to do things, and do what works best for them.
or doesn't work best for them and fall into the trap of repeating wrongs.
 
maha said:
that is the perfect way for the hit to be. as in all sports people deviate on the best way to do things, and do what works best for them.
or doesn't work best for them and fall into the trap of repeating wrongs.
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One thing I did, which suited two purposes, was to line up with my tip over the top center of the CB. This allowed me to start on 'true center' of the cue ball and ensured that I was lined up to still have my arm moving forward at contact to reduce the chances of decelerating.
 
very good. if you notice most of the great phillipino players would line up at the bottom of the cue ball as that is the exact spot of its vertical center. and easiest to see. and work up from there.
i still do that one, but have some old habits of just starting by looking at the center for easy shots which isnt as good.
 
Jaden said:
There's another reason that from time immemorial that the instruction has been to have cb contact at the bottom of the pendulum. If the arm is swinging forward, even from just gravity, there is less chance of deceleration. If you strike the ball after the bottom of the pendulum, you have to be actively moving the cue forward to avoid deceleration.
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One of the pendulum stroke's strengths is that its fixed range of motion ensures the tip returns to the address position. Another is that the bottom of the grip hand's arc is where the stick is moving most horizontally for the longest time and gravity's effect on speed is neutral. Kind of a stroke sweet spot.

pj
chgo
 
—“There are situations where a particular stroke works better than others. The old players had multiple strokes in their bag of tricks, roughly the equivalent of the golfer's bag of clubs. Mosconi used at least three strokes, more if you broke them down precisely.”

I completely reject the premise that some strokes work better than others, and this is Exactly the idea that I am trying to squash. They are all equivalent if your impulse vector is equivalent.

A horrible jab stroke is equivalent to a long accelerating stroke if you produce the same impulse.

I won’t say more since I’ve answered the OPs question for him. Stay warm!
 
nataddrho said:
—“There are situations where a particular stroke works better than others. The old players had multiple strokes in their bag of tricks, roughly the equivalent of the golfer's bag of clubs. Mosconi used at least three strokes, more if you broke them down precisely.”

I completely reject the premise that some strokes work better than others, and this is Exactly the idea that I am trying to squash. They are all equivalent if your impulse vector is equivalent.

A horrible jab stroke is equivalent to a long accelerating stroke if you produce the same impulse.

I won’t say more since I’ve answered the OPs question for him. Stay warm!
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No one here is suggesting certain strokes are requisite to certain shots. Fact is though, Incompetal has to shoot them. The histrionics however subtle - or not, are a memory tool. They keep things sorted in the player's "special place". ( they are a vain bunch)

Bet you don't have equations for Early Incompetal either. :ROFLMAO:
 
nataddrho said:
—“There are situations where a particular stroke works better than others. The old players had multiple strokes in their bag of tricks, roughly the equivalent of the golfer's bag of clubs. Mosconi used at least three strokes, more if you broke them down precisely.”

I completely reject the premise that some strokes work better than others, and this is Exactly the idea that I am trying to squash. They are all equivalent if your impulse vector is equivalent.

A horrible jab stroke is equivalent to a long accelerating stroke if you produce the same impulse.

I won’t say more since I’ve answered the OPs question for him. Stay warm!
Click to expand...


Ah, but some strokes are easier to get the impulse you want for a shot.

A pool player usually has three cues with him now, jump, break, and at least one playing cue. He doesn't swing any two the same, effectively using the right stroke for the job along with the right cue.

If all cues and all strokes worked equally well, nobody would be toting three cues!

Hu
 
nataddrho said:
—“There are situations where a particular stroke works better than others. The old players had multiple strokes in their bag of tricks, roughly the equivalent of the golfer's bag of clubs. Mosconi used at least three strokes, more if you broke them down precisely.”

I completely reject the premise that some strokes work better than others, and this is Exactly the idea that I am trying to squash. They are all equivalent if your impulse vector is equivalent.

A horrible jab stroke is equivalent to a long accelerating stroke if you produce the same impulse.

I won’t say more since I’ve answered the OPs question for him. Stay warm!
Click to expand...
Well so long as the concepts are hit, then it doesn't matter. There's actually a stroke that looks REALLY punchy but can be superior to a smooth stroke. I'm not giving way it's secret though. Although if someone were to analyze a certain top players stroke and understand body mechanics, they could figure it out too.
 
Jaden said:
Well so long as the concepts are hit, then it doesn't matter. There's actually a stroke that looks REALLY punchy but can be superior to a smooth stroke. I'm not giving way it's secret though. Although if someone were to analyze a certain top players stroke and understand body mechanics, they could figure it out too.
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Hopkins? Preoccupation with stroke inaccuracies vs a consolation to his football background is what I conclude. Had no problem with paralysis or fatigue either.
 
Oikawa said:
Does anyone here know any science behind this, does the timing/smoothness/delivery etc. whatever you want to call it really affect the range of possible shots that can be executed? What I am absolutely not disputing is that timing aids in consistency, that is true. An extreme spin shot is definitely more likely to be made with a smooth delivery, but can all the shots be executed even one time with a bad one? That is the question I'm wondering.
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It is all urban legend non-sense bullshit from people wanting to sell you something.

Maybe Dr Dave has some data on it.
 
maha said:
the longer the length/distance of the period of no acceleration/constant speed of tip, the easier to have the proper speed when you hit your target/object ball.

so acceleration through the stroke is wrong. and taught by most of the non knowledgeable teachers that just regurgitate what they heard in the past.

it is uneven deceleration that is catastrophic near the cueball that you cannot control. so you need to learn the balance.
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One huge disagree is
"so acceleration through the stroke is wrong."
Well depends on what you mean.shrug.
My best performance comes when I can launch the cueball (missile) precisely.
The pause is a final wellness check at the back in preparation for the launch.
Launch according to martial arts training always starts with the footwork. From the ground up . The conductor of the performance er uh the planing to execution decisions must be uh well commitment comes to mind. The leap of faith.
"What does it matter that you can't swim?" "The fall will probably kill ya anyway. 🤷‍♂️ "
Frog was my first nick name. 🤷‍♂️
 
maha said:
gentle acceleration also means the speed isn't changing much in the area you are attempting to hit so that does work.
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That's, uh, on cruise control. And yep it's consistent yet simple was straight pool skills. The off the chandelier shots were fun in the cheap ring games. Cheap lessons. 😉
I paid for mine. 🤷‍♂️ Bar table 8 ball at a buck a game.
That Old Cork Sucker never made a hard shot! Grrr!
I give lessons, now. 🤷‍♂️ 😉
 
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