WNT, WPA and 2026

[jbart65]

This scheduling clash was entirely on Matchroom. Las Vegas Open dates are always announced at least a year in advance. The PLP without Filler, Gorst, SVB and Shaw was a consequence of poor schedule planning by Matchroom.

You are right, but a careful reading of my post shows I did not blame anyone for the clash of dates between the Las Vegas and PLP events.

I merely noted that when dates clash, the two companies are, in fact, in competition for eyeballs and sponsors. The idea floated by Karim that Predator is not in competition with the WNT is ... incorrect, to be as neutral as can be. Of course they are!

 

[uk_9_ball_convert]

The game has too much tactical play today. Nobody is suggesting that we go back to the looser pockets that were in vogue until about a decade ago, but 9ball on 4 1//4" pockets is, in my opinion, a better game to watch than what we are getting in WNT play. Rest assured, the game's not too easy for the pros on 4 1/4" pockets. With the tough breaking rules and 4" pockets now in use in WNT majors, we rarely see more than a three pack. In fact, many players go an entire WNT season without producing even one three pack. The WNT break rule, with the narrow break box and the nine on the spot are what have made the game so difficult.

Pool fans are like snooker fans. They appreciate good tactical play, but thirst for breathtaking offense. Slow play, already a big issue in WNT events, has been an even bigger problem since the break rules and pocket sizes were made more stringent.

Not saying you shouldn't enjoy the current product. It's what you like and that's great. My opinion is that WNT has misjudged the taste of far too many pool fans in making the game more tactical and, ultimately, more difficult.

The Matchroom break doesn't make the game too difficult. Pros get the 1 a very high percentage of the time, and even as a pretty mediocre amateur I get it about 50% of the time (took the game up 2 years ago and play 1-2.5 hours a week, though did have lots of previous English pool experience).

My club has 4.1" pockets and it just feels the right difficulty level to be fun as an amateur. The idea of pros on 4.25" pockets sounds ridiculous to me. Just had a lesson with a pro (on his table) and he said his pockets are 3.7". The funny thing is by the end of the lesson I was potting more on them than I normally do into 4.1" pockets. Maybe because I played snooker/English pool first, but to me the idea of pros on 4.25" pockets just seems wrong. I want to watch the elite be challenged.

 

[Jaden]

The Matchroom break doesn't make the game too difficult. Pros get the 1 a very high percentage of the time, and even as a pretty mediocre amateur I get it about 50% of the time (took the game up 2 years ago and play 1-2.5 hours a week, though did have lots of previous English pool experience).

My club has 4.1" pockets and it just feels the right difficulty level to be fun as an amateur. The idea of pros on 4.25" pockets sounds ridiculous to me. Just had a lesson with a pro (on his table) and he said his pockets are 3.7". The funny thing is by the end of the lesson I was potting more on them than I normally do into 4.1" pockets. Maybe because I played snooker/English pool first, but to me the idea of pros on 4.25" pockets just seems wrong. I want to watch the elite be challenged.

Well struck balls will go easier on most 4" pockets and that has to do with the facing rebound angle relative to the pocket opening, etc.. I have always preferred tighter pockets. Back in the Hardtimes days, I would always pray that I would get a match on table 1 or table 6.

 

[SA96]

I really hope Matchroom don't invite the KO brothers to the WNT World Championship and/or US Open.

Would be very unfair on other players who have been travelling and grinding in smaller events.

 

[Jaden]

I really hope Matchroom don't invite the KO brothers to the WNT World Championship and/or US Open.

Would be very unfair on other players who have been travelling and grinding in smaller events.

Yeah, I don't agree, the biggest tourneys should have the best players if that is determinable without them having to play in WNT specific events, then that's who should be invited.

 

[jbart65]

How can you prove that Predator is responsible for clashing the dates for the Mosconi?

I can't prove it, and I didn't try to. I noted that I found it "curious."

WNT actually announced the 2026 date for the Mosconi last December, a week before Predator announced its calendar of events. But of course these events take time to organize, and perhaps no one is to blame. Sometimes conflicts will happen through no fault of either side.

Matchroom cannot say that the Mosconi will be in November and expect Predator to wait for the actual dates to be announced before scheduling events in November ... Karim alluded to this by saying that companies have been blocking out weeks on the calendar for an event.

The Mosconi has regularly taken place either the last week of November of the first week of December going back a decade. I don't think it is too much to ask Predator not to have overlapping schedules with the premier event of pool. Ditto for the US Open and WPC which, credit to Predator, it steers clear of. The rest of the year should be up for grabs.

Obviously there needs to be better communications and willingness to avoid clashes by all parties.

Agreed. I actually find Matchroom far more at fault for scheduling conflicts than Predator. The WNT has been way too late finalizing its schedules. We are still waiting for a date for the WPC, for instance.

However, I don't think clashes for the Mosconi is a big deal also. One has a PPV audience and the other free YouTube. The one to be hurt is Predator because 10 top players will not be able to play in its event because they will obviously choose Mosconi over the Predator event.

Not sure I agree, but a reasonable point of view.

It is comical to say that Matchroom discovered Vietnam. Not sure what kind of research you are doing. From the inception, the WPA warned Matchroom that it does not want it in Vietnam because the Vietnamese Federation spent a lot of money and resources developing pool in Vietnam and the Federation did not want Matchroom to walk in an reap the benefits.

Research shows WNT launched the Hanoi Open in 2023. Why didn't the WPA and Vietnamese federation "walk in and reap the benefits" earlier if they knew what a great market it would be? The WPA didn't show up until a year later after the Hanoi Open wowed the global pool world.

It's OK for WPA to tell Matchroom where it can and cannot go? What kind of pool-advocating organizations don't want big tournaments in popular locales? Are you saying Vietnam should try to limit the number of big events in the country? Weird way to try to grow the sport domestically.

Clearly, there is plenty of room for both WNT and Predator in Vietnam.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I have only read a few posts in this thread...

I too think the pros and the fans have settled down quite a bit from the WPA vs WNT drama a couple of years ago. There were distinct "sides" then. Now, most of the players went back to being "free agents", and going whatever they please that particular day.

I'm actually happy more pros are supporting the Predator events. Even before the WPA/WNT drama started, they were poorly attended. More Eurorpeans would be at them than Americans, and they were on American soil! Now, for whatever reason, their attendance is way up.

The fact is the sport has been on a big upswing from about 2015 on, after a huge decline from about 2005-2014. Every year there has been more events, more prize money, more promoters. Even on a local level the same has happened. There is simply no way for all of those events promoters to coordinate and keep calendars clear. I've said it before, it's a good problem to have.

 

[VVP]

Research shows WNT launched the Hanoi Open in 2023. Why didn't the WPA and Vietnamese federation "walk in and reap the benefits" earlier if they knew what a great market it would be? The WPA didn't show up until a year later after the Hanoi Open wowed the global pool world.

It's OK for WPA to tell Matchroom where it can and cannot go? What kind of pool-advocating organizations don't want big tournaments in popular locales? Are you saying Vietnam should try to limit the number of big events in the country? Weird way to try to grow the sport domestically.

Clearly, there is plenty of room for both WNT and Predator in Vietnam.

I don't spend much time following pool to speak as an authority. However, I know that Matchroom didn’t discover pool potential in Vietnam. If I remember correctly, I think Matchroom initially wanted to call it Vietnam Open and was forced to change it to Hanoi Open.
I cannot answer the question as to why the WPA and Vietnamese Federation didn’t try to bring big pool events to Vietnam before Matchroom, but I know they didn't want Matchroom there. I don't know the politics/economics enough to say why the WPA and Vietnamese Federation is protecting the Vietnam turf other than what I stated before in that the Federation thought that it planted the garden and didn't want Matchroom to reap the fruits of their labor.

 

[iusedtoberich]

...snip... the Federation thought that it planted the garden and didn't want Matchroom to reap the fruits of their labor.

I am speaking as "educated guessing" but I doubt WPA had anything to do with the popularity of pool in Vietnam. I believe pool is a gambling game there, along with Carom Billiards, and about every single boy and teen play it and gamble at it. Here in the States, there are TONS of carom rooms owned by Vietnamese-Americans that are filled with carom tables and maybe a couple pool tables for any (other) American customers that walk in.

Just like the Philippines, their pool culture is fueled with gambling culture. There might have been 3 major international tournaments in the Philippines in the past 30 years. Yet it's the strongest pool playing country in the world and has been since probably 1980.

 

[jbart65]

The fact is the sport has been on a big upswing from about 2015 on, after a huge decline from about 2005-2014. Every year there has been more events, more prize money, more promoters. Even on a local level the same has happened. There is simply no way for all of those events promoters to coordinate and keep calendars clear. I've said it before, it's a good problem to have.

No sport can truly thrive with lots of small independent promoters - that was the state of pro pool for years.

Given the global nature of pool, there is definitely room for a few big entities such as WNT and Predator. Were they to cooperate more, it would benefit everyone. Some conflicts are inevitable, but a 365-day calendar is pretty darn big.

 

[VVP]

I am speaking as "educated guessing" but I doubt WPA had anything to do with the popularity of pool in Vietnam. I believe pool is a gambling game there, along with Carom Billiards, and about every single boy and teen play it and gamble at it. Here in the States, there are TONS of carom rooms owned by Vietnamese-Americans that are filled with carom tables and maybe a couple pool tables for any (other) American customers that walk in.

Just like the Philippines, their pool culture is fueled with gambling culture. There might have been 3 major international tournaments in the Philippines in the past 30 years. Yet it's the strongest pool playing country in the world and has been since probably 1980.

From what I understand, pool only took off in Vietnam after Covid in 2020. I understand that the Vietnamese Federation claim that it's the reason for the rise.
Not sure if we have a Vietnamese on this site who can shed some light on this.

 

[kingwang]

My club has 4.1" pockets and it just feels the right difficulty level to be fun as an amateur. The idea of pros on 4.25" pockets sounds ridiculous to me. Just had a lesson with a pro (on his table) and he said his pockets are 3.7". The funny thing is by the end of the lesson I was potting more on them than I normally do into 4.1" pockets. Maybe because I played snooker/English pool first, but to me the idea of pros on 4.25" pockets just seems wrong. I want to watch the elite be challenged.

I don't think your pro is the norm. Even the Fillers have 4.125" pockets on their home table.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... My club has 4.1" pockets and it just feels the right difficulty level to be fun as an amateur. The idea of pros on 4.25" pockets sounds ridiculous to me. Just had a lesson with a pro (on his table) and he said his pockets are 3.7". The funny thing is by the end of the lesson I was potting more on them than I normally do into 4.1" pockets. ...

The shape of the pocket can have a large impact on how easy it plays. A huge factor is how far from parallel the facings are.

 

[VVP]

The shape of the pocket can have a large impact on how easy it plays. A huge factor is how far from parallel the facings are.

The Predator ARC table with the 4" side pocket seems to be unplayable even at the pro level. You can see players avoiding it if they can. Can the pocket be cut differently and still maintain the 4" width?

 

[uk_9_ball_convert]

The shape of the pocket can have a large impact on how easy it plays. A huge factor is how far from parallel the facings are.

Was on a Rasson Ox table, not sure what the process was for reducing the pockets, think they still had the same profile, but were just smaller. All the tables have Simonis cloth, but I'm not sure if the pros table maybe gets reclothed more often, didn't notice it being massively faster though. TBF me saying by the end I was playing better on the 3.7" pockets was more to do with how much I seemed to instantly improve after having a pro show me how to fix my alignment.

I've now got 2 opposite fears for the next time I go to the pool hall, one is that I wont quite remember how exactly to do it and will have lost all that improvement. The other is that I play as well, but now the game will be boringly easy with normal sized pockets.

 

[Bob Jewett]

The Predator ARC table with the 4" side pocket seems to be unplayable even at the pro level. You can see players avoiding it if they can. Can the pocket be cut differently and still maintain the 4" width?

The WPA table specs include how parallel the facings are. There should be a specified amount of closing as you go into the pocket. This is very, very important for how the pocket plays.

I saw Fedor give a side pocket a long, hard stare after a ball popped back out. Are they really 4"?

 

[VVP]

The WPA table specs include how parallel the facings are. There should be a specified amount of closing as you go into the pocket. This is very, very important for how the pocket plays.

I saw Fedor give a side pocket a long, hard stare after a ball popped back out. Are they really 4"?

4" is what I heard the commentators say. I don't know if they were correct.

Edit: I take that back. Let me check back.
Ok, the commentators said the pockets were 4 1/8" corners and 4 1/2" center.

 

[skogstokig]

4" is what I heard the commentators say. I don't know if they were correct.

Edit: I take that back. Let me check back.
Ok, the commentators said the pockets were 4 1/8" corners and 4 1/2" center.

yep, but they seemed to play harder than 4" diamonds. both events were on at the same time, and jumping between streams that was my conclusion

The Matchroom break doesn't make the game too difficult. Pros get the 1 a very high percentage of the time, and even as a pretty mediocre amateur I get it about 50% of the time (took the game up 2 years ago and play 1-2.5 hours a week, though did have lots of previous English pool experience).

it's not just making the 1 ball, it's what happens next. but i agree overall. the break was broken. in a way this rule rectified it to where the lay after a break is again unpredictable.

 

[Jaden]

No sport can truly thrive with lots of small independent promoters - that was the state of pro pool for years.

Given the global nature of pool, there is definitely room for a few big entities such as WNT and Predator. Were they to cooperate more, it would benefit everyone. Some conflicts are inevitable, but a 365-day calendar is pretty darn big.

I don't disagree but one of the problems with pool is that it DOESN'T have a 365 day calendar. The margins and the capital injection is so small that they only have off dates that they can afford to get venues. As it expands that might change. We'll have to see.

 

[uk_9_ball_convert]

I don't disagree but one of the problems with pool is that it DOESN'T have a 365 day calendar. The margins and the capital injection is so small that they only have off dates that they can afford to get venues. As it expands that might change. We'll have to see.

It's a fair point, but if the events are all over the world surely it's off season somewhere in the world most weekends.