Testing Kicks and Banks on Diamond Brand Tables, and How to Adjust Aiming

[iusedtoberich]

There are many players who only play on Diamonds (Blue Labels). So to them the Diamonds bank correctly and the other tables bank long. This would be especially so for players who don’t use any system and bank by feel and experience.

I would be curious to hear if great bankers who grew up in the Diamond era (such as Fedor) think of adjusting to a Diamond banking short or just think of that as the default.

I thought that too in years past. But when these modern players play on a GC or a Predator they play jam up. I think even though players today are used to Dimaonds more than other brands, the angles on other brands are still more intuitive to them. That's my guess, anyway

Also of note all the European players play on normal tables in Europe on the Eurotour.

 

[maha]

they bank short of the old standard in and out angles that is the basis for starting your thinking.

but after playing enough you have hit enough banks to just know where to hit on the speed you are going to use
you still have to visualize your shot line not just the spot to hit.
just like cutting a ball in you dont have to measure the line you just know the spot you need to hit and do it.

 

[GideonF]

I thought that too in years past. But when these modern players play on a GC or a Predator they play jam up. I think even though players today are used to Dimaonds more than other brands, the angles on other brands are still more intuitive to them. That's my guess, anyway

Also of note all the European players play on normal tables in Europe on the Eurotour.

Could be. Or they just say “these damn GC’s bank long. Remember to adjust!”

 

[Badpenguin]

You can't possibly duplicate the exact same stroke, speed, and tip placement during every shot, nor control the environment, so these tests are anecdotal at best. Get a robot that can duplicate exact conditions for every shot.

 

[dr_dave]

just like cutting a ball in you dont have to measure the line you just know the spot you need to hit and do it.

… but at least cutting works pretty much the same on all table brands (with only slight adjustments sometimes required to throw differences due to ball conditions).

 

[jbart65]

You can't possibly duplicate the exact same stroke, speed, and tip placement during every shot, nor control the environment, so these tests are anecdotal at best. Get a robot that can duplicate exact conditions for every shot.

I test out every table I play on. So do a lot of other players. Some basic tests can quickly give me a feel for any table, assuming no big change in room conditions during the day. I wouldn't do these tests if they didn't tell me anything.

That said, my own very limited tests on Diamonds shows they bank fairly normally. Once I come across a Diamond that banks or kicks short, I'll report back.

 

[dr_dave]

That said, my own very limited tests on Diamonds shows they bank fairly normally. Once I come across a Diamond that banks or kicks short, I'll report back.

Based on my experience (and the video), you must think all other table brands kick and bank long (or you don’t really care much or you are good at adjusting quickly and subconsciously).

 

[maha]

diamonds do not bank normal
unless you already have given them as the normal. which may in time be the normal,

but tables of all kinds bank much closer to the real normal that the diamonds were put on there for to be used just for these purposes.

 

[skor]

As the cloth gets older and/or humidity gets higher, the table will bank even shorter and using these aiming system might result in a miss. Not to mention pocket size, on 4.25 or 4 inches that small difference that in this video made the ball will rattle and sit in the jaws.

 

[dr_dave]

As the cloth gets older and/or humidity gets higher, the table will bank even shorter and using these aiming system might result in a miss. Not to mention pocket size, on 4.25 or 4 inches that small difference that in this video made the ball will rattle and sit in the jaws.

If you want to be accurate, the systems require aiming adjustment based on conditions. This is true with all table brands, but the adjustments required on Diamond brand tables are larger.

 

[jbart65]

Based on my experience (and the video), you must think all other table brands kick and bank long (or you don’t really care much or you are good at adjusting quickly and subconsciously).

Respectfully I don’t have your degree or expertise, DrDave, and I make no claim of certainty.

I have played on five Diamond tables in the past few years. A fairly new 7 footer in Massachusetts. Also, 7-foot and 9-foot tables in Nashville, TN, and 7-foot and 9-foot tables in Ashville, NC.

None of them kicked or banked notably short in my tests, as they did in yours.

My tests consisted of kicks using the tracks 2-1, 3-1.5, 4-2, 5-2.5, 6-3 and 8-4. I also practiced the main Corner Five shot.

Then I did some 2-1 banks and other banks.

I don’t doubt Diamond tables can bank short. There’s too much evidence to suggest otherwise. You have shown the proof yourself.

Why is my experience different? I don’t know. For one thing, it’s limited. Slightly worn cloth or rails could be involved. Maybe the weather - these were all humid locations at a humid time of year. I have also wondered if Diamond has been tinkering with its tables.

What do I consider long or short? I think of the angle of incidence and reflection.

This formula/idea/theorem, as you know, suggests a 2-1 kick and the like should result in the cueball cleanly and repeatedly knocking in the target ball in front of the pocket.

Most tables I have played on are pretty close, and I have played on most brands. My 7-foot Olhausen at home is spot on.

On some tables I have had to add a quarter tip of English to get the desired result on a 2-1 kick. That is the case with one GC4 I play on near Washington, DC.

I also often have to add a quarter tip on kicks after the fifth diamond. Or shoot one “number” above or below what the angle of incidence suggests.

All that said, I am a very good kicker and banker. I adjust quickly regardless of conditions. I’ve spent a lot of time practicing both.

I just spent a whole month, for example, doing nothing but kicking. Watched and rewatched every video I could find, including some of yours that I saw for the fifth or sixth time!

I am doing the same this month with banking. Nothing but banking videos and banking.

 

[jbart65]

Crazy stuff can happen, too.

A few weeks ago, I shot a seemingly simple 2-1 kick on a GC4 I play on regularly in a DC suburb. The shot was way off.

After my match was over, I practiced the same 2-1 bank and it was quite short. A very slight amount of running spin solved the issue.

Then I practiced the classic Corner 5 shot. I could not get the CB to go into the opposite pocket from where I shot hitting the third, second or first diamond. Didn’t matter the speed or spin.

Just a week earlier, the same table kicked just fine and I pocketed the Corner 5 shot consistently hitting the second diamond.

I’ve never played on a table that was so off from one week to the next!

 

[dr_dave]

My tests consisted of kicks using the tracks 2-1, 3-1.5, 4-2, 5-2.5, 6-3 and 8-4.

Are you aiming through the diamonds, using the standard 2-to-1 rolling-ball system, with no sidespin?

​

 

[jbart65]

Yes.

 

[dr_dave]

Yes.

If it is not too much trouble, please post a video. I have never seen an unmodified Diamond play “on system” as you have described.

 

[jbart65]

Can't, DrDave. I live in DC. The Diamonds I played on were in Massachusetts, Tennessee and North Carolina when I was traveling.

Next time I play on a Diamond I'll try to record a video. Oddly, not many Diamond 9-footers in the DC area, unless I want to drive further into Virginia or Maryland. All the places near where I live have Gold Crowns or Valleys.

You are making me think I am living in an alternate universe!

 

[dr_dave]

Can't, DrDave. I live in DC. The Diamonds I played on were in Massachusetts, Tennessee and North Carolina when I was traveling.

Next time I play on a Diamond I'll try to record a video. Oddly, not many Diamond 9-footers in the DC area, unless I want to drive further into Virginia or Maryland. All the places near where I live have Gold Crowns or Valleys.

You are making me think I am living in an alternate universe!

Sounds good (except for the "alternate universe" part). Thanks.

 

[boogieman]

I test out every table I play on. So do a lot of other players. Some basic tests can quickly give me a feel for any table, assuming no big change in room conditions during the day. I wouldn't do these tests if they didn't tell me anything.

That said, my own very limited tests on Diamonds shows they bank fairly normally. Once I come across a Diamond that banks or kicks short, I'll report back.

Another thing, if you can't test a table for whatever reason, you can learn a ton by just watching your opponent or others finishing up their set.

I usually never get to warm up in league but watching others you can get a feel for speed, how much draw takes, spin off the rails, how the rails play etc.

 

[ShootingArts]

Crazy stuff can happen, too.

A few weeks ago, I shot a seemingly simple 2-1 kick on a GC4 I play on regularly in a DC suburb. The shot was way off.

After my match was over, I practiced the same 2-1 bank and it was quite short. A very slight amount of running spin solved the issue.

Then I practiced the classic Corner 5 shot. I could not get the CB to go into the opposite pocket from where I shot hitting the third, second or first diamond. Didn’t matter the speed or spin.

Just a week earlier, the same table kicked just fine and I pocketed the Corner 5 shot consistently hitting the second diamond.

I’ve never played on a table that was so off from one week to the next!

First thing to check, is an AC/Heater register blowing on the table? Doors nearby? Unusual amount of foot traffic passing by or finding yourself next to a league table with people hanging over it and talking before and after every shot? Lots of hand powder or just a dirty table. Humidity can make a big difference particularly on a table with little care.

I would hate to say anything is impossible but a radical change in a week is almost certainly due to something besides the amount of wear. I would study the room. Sometimes a table near a wall or something else to direct air will have issues dealing the AC or heat. It may take a minute or two for the airflow to reach a table.

Most tables in a pool hall are subject to some of these things. One of my favorites was sunshine through a very lightly tinted window every evening. One entire long rail became a safety. It made matters far worse if you suckered somebody into looking directly into the sun. That could cost them a game or two!

Learning to read a room fast was a must for a traveler. Often local players overlook things that would benefit their game. Not likely to change in one week but one place I played had a lighting issue. Took me about a month to figure out that deal. After finding it once I check lights now.

Good Luck!

Hu

 

[Badpenguin]

Based on my experience (and the video), you must think all other table brands kick and bank long (or you don’t really care much or you are good at adjusting quickly and subconsciously).

Again, slight differences in tip placement, stroke speed, and aim can explain what you are seeing. Not to mention, if you are testing on say, older gold crowns, how old is the rubber on those? Are you comparing new to old rubber? Is the cloth the same?

I'd like to see this myth (or not) put to bed once and for all, but it might require some reliable methodology. Your results cannot possibly be duplicated because your methodology depends 100% on you being the shooter.