Two of the upcoming WNT ranking events canceled

[kingwang]

I saw an announcement that the McDermott Open was canceled today. This comes on the heels of The Empire State Championship getting canceled as well. I heard both might have been due to lack of signups? Also, Scott Frost posted on Facebook earlier today pleading for more signups for the Yuma Open.

Somewhat related, from Emily Frazer a few days ago on Facebook:

Criteria changing for WNT ranking events for 2027, next year is going to be interesting!

Anybody have more details on what's going on?

 

[maha]

one thing that is going to hurt tournaments. at least smaller ones is that now there is way too many. some on top of each other.

the dead money is the key. they provide most of the profit. room rentals, food spending etc. and entry fees that never get paid to. those players will go to certain events but cannot afford or want to go to a multitude of them.

and only so many will pay for viewing.

basically the pie is getting cut into too many slices.

 

[Rocket354]

Yuma is so remote when I looked at flights I needed a long layover just to get from there to Las Vegas, <300 miles away. Two or three layovers to get anywhere else in the US.

I've traveled to Manila for the Reyes Cup, and to Hanoi fir the Hanoi Open. I'm not going to Yuma.

 

[SBC]

I am sure this is due to the reality that...

There are now too many events for even the top sponsored players to attend.

That no matter how many events they have, the best players take the lion's share.

The entry fees have gone up and worldwide quality entrants increased to the point that all the advanced amateur "bracket fillers" are not participating.


They should offer a bounty to the highest placing playsr who had never cashed before....with a Fargo under say 725.

 

[SBC]

one thing that is going to hurt tournaments. at least smaller ones is that now there is way too many. some on top of each other.

the dead money is the key. they provide most of the profit. room rentals, food spending etc. and entry fees that never get paid to. those players will go to certain events but cannot afford or want to go to a multitude of them.

and only so many will pay for viewing.

basically the pie is getting cut into too many slices.

Correct. And all the US events they took over, the local bracket fillers are not going to play versus these world class fields.

 

[easy-e]

Here's my prediction:
- These bigger tournaments will realize they need more "dead money" entrants to get the prize pool bigger.
- They'll slowly start introducing tiered entry fees based on Fargo ratings to entice the lower-rated players to come.
- They'll start offering reduced races to attract more players.
- Eventually they'll all be 600 and under events that sell out in 8 minutes.
- Top players will be hosed again.
- We here at AZB will see an increase in threads about sandbagging.

 

[Rocket354]

I am sure this is due to the reality that...

There are now too many events for even the top sponsored players to attend.

That no matter how many events they have, the best players take the lion's share.

The entry fees have gone up and worldwide quality entrants increased to the point that all the advanced amateur "bracket fillers" are not participating.


They should offer a bounty to the highest placing playsr who had never cashed before....with a Fargo under say 725.

I see split brackets are becoming more popular around me. You have a high side and a low side. Both sides split the prize fund...but there are often 2-4X as many players on the low side. So it is a much better value proposition for the high side players, who are effectively getting subsidized by the low side.

Perhaps some similar arrangement could work at the pro level? Every split bracket I've seen has been handicapped, but I see no reason that has to be done beyond the initial break into two sides.

 

[SBC]

I have always felt a pro am tournament could be played. With pros going to 9 and amateurs to 7.

I held 6 or 7 of these with the best players from the region plus 2 to 4 pros like SVB, Mika, Hatch and Billy Thorpe. We had several upsets where a advanced amateur won the set.

 

[Island Drive]

one thing that is going to hurt tournaments. at least smaller ones is that now there is way too many. some on top of each other.

the dead money is the key. they provide most of the profit. room rentals, food spending etc. and entry fees that never get paid to. those players will go to certain events but cannot afford or want to go to a multitude of them.

and only so many will pay for viewing.

basically the pie is getting cut into too many slices.

Yep.... I remember the days when an annual big event (Olathe for example) was coming up, one that gave me the opportunity to play with the better players.
I would save up for a couple months to attend these events, not expecting to cash but I found it worth my time as I kept improving every year.
Always split hotel costs/gas etc. with a traveling partner/a must even today.
Like Man said.... there are sooooooooooooooooooooooooo many events..... you tend to choose where the better players won't be and go there hoping to pay expenses or better, this aspect effects all events.
Earlier yrs most big annual events were near full.
I've pretty much quit playing for 15 yrs and now don't play, sold my table, there's no pool rooms unless I drive and hour one way, and my games gone.
Also, Fargo doesn't factor in age, and it seems to go up allot easier than it ever goes down.

 

[GideonF]

Here's my prediction:
- These bigger tournaments will realize they need more "dead money" entrants to get the prize pool bigger.
- They'll slowly start introducing tiered entry fees based on Fargo ratings to entice the lower-rated players to come.
- They'll start offering reduced races to attract more players.
- Eventually they'll all be 600 and under events that sell out in 8 minutes.
- Top players will be hosed again.
- We here at AZB will see an increase in threads about sandbagging.

It depends on what you mean by top players. I have zero sympathy for the 650-750 players who bitch about capped tournaments and say things like “get better and practice” because lower players don’t want to play them even and then these same top players refuse to step up when open events come around and they are the ones who are underdogs.

What sucks is that there ARE a bunch of players 650-750 guys who do want to step up and play the pros. But without more of them willing to do so, the events can’t happen.

 

[skor]

I guess that one thing that WNT didn’t consider is American laziness…
The USA is big and most won’t travel too much and too often if they don’t think they can at least break even.
And not enough pro level players in any given state.
It’s easier to hustle nickel and dimes at the local bar of the local drunks

 

[hlymnstr14]

It depends on what you mean by top players. I have zero sympathy for the 650-750 players who bitch about capped tournaments and say things like “get better and practice” because lower players don’t want to play them even and then these same top players refuse to step up when open events come around and they are the ones who are underdogs.

What sucks is that there ARE a bunch of players 650-750 guys who do want to step up and play the pros. But without more of them willing to do so, the events can’t happen.

As a player in that 650-750 range. I was signed up and paid for entry to Mcdermott open. 7 hours away. I play as many of the bigger tournaments I can just to play better players. Def stinks.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I guess that one thing that WNT didn’t consider is American laziness…
The USA is big and most won’t travel too much and too often if they don’t think they can at least break even.
And not enough pro level players in any given state.
It’s easier to hustle nickel and dimes at the local bar of the local drunks

Reminds me of the Predator Pro Series when it had regional US stops. As I recall, the top players in those events were mostly European....

Edit... well and some others. Here are the top finishers in the Wisconsin Open 2023 event from the Predator/CSI series:

 

[maha]

I see split brackets are becoming more popular around me. You have a high side and a low side. Both sides split the prize fund...but there are often 2-4X as many players on the low side. So it is a much better value proposition for the high side players, who are effectively getting subsidized by the low side.

Perhaps some similar arrangement could work at the pro level? Every split bracket I've seen has been handicapped, but I see no reason that has to be done beyond the initial break into two sides.

the fair and correct way is to have each play for the amount that bracket put in.

it is so wrong for others to have to donate to the top players end. sure that is what brings them there. but it should be up to the sponsors and organizers to see to that. not put it on the players that have no chance.
al it does is eventually kill of those weaker players entering.

i understand many want to play with the so called big boys watching from the chair. but to me at least that is the definition of a sucker, as far as the money goes. but if just paying for a good seat then that's on them.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... - These bigger tournaments will realize they need more "dead money" entrants to get the prize pool bigger.
- They'll slowly start introducing tiered entry fees based on Fargo ratings

In the WNT-run events, most of the prize funds are added money. I think the main benefits to MR of large fields is the additional buzz back in home rooms/countries and the room-night commitment to the host hotel.

I'll give ten to one odds that Emily has nothing to do with FargoRate in the next five years.

 

[GideonF]

As a player in that 650-750 range. I was signed up and paid for entry to Mcdermott open. 7 hours away. I play as many of the bigger tournaments I can just to play better players. Def stinks.

To be clear I have great sympathy for players like you. In many places you can’t even enter most tournaments (even with giving a spot) and so cancellation of events with the big boys is doubly bad for you.

I do wonder if it’s possible for a WNT sanctioned tournament to have staggered entry fees. If the post I saw was right, $400 is a lot of money to pay for an average pro event for guys like you who are unlikely to run super deep. Or some kind of side pot for the top 4 players under 700 or 725 or something.

 

[easy-e]

In the WNT-run events, most of the prize funds are added money. I think the main benefits to MR of large fields is the additional buzz back in home rooms/countries and the room-night commitment to the host hotel.

I'll give ten to one odds that Emily has nothing to do with FargoRate in the next five years.

I was completely joking

 

[garczar]

Yep.... I remember the days when an annual big event (Olathe for example) was coming up, one that gave me the opportunity to play with the better players.
I would save up for a couple months to attend these events, not expecting to cash but I found it worth my time as I kept improving every year.
Always split hotel costs/gas etc. with a traveling partner/a must even today.
Like Man said.... there are sooooooooooooooooooooooooo many events..... you tend to choose where the better players won't be and go there hoping to pay expenses or better, this aspect effects all events.
Earlier yrs most big annual events were near full.
I've pretty much quit playing for 15 yrs and now don't play, sold my table, there's no pool rooms unless I drive and hour one way, and my games gone.
Also, Fargo doesn't factor in age, and it seems to go up allot easier than it ever goes down.

Evelyn is doing another Olathe event July30-Aug2. 1p is full but 9b is still open afaik.

 

[rexus31]

I saw an announcement that the McDermott Open was canceled today. This comes on the heels of The Empire State Championship getting canceled as well. I heard both might have been due to lack of signups? Also, Scott Frost posted on Facebook earlier today pleading for more signups for the Yuma Open.

Somewhat related, from Emily Frazer a few days ago on Facebook:


Anybody have more details on what's going on?

Who wants to go to Yuma? No disrespect to any AZB members that live there, but it's in the middle of nowhere, hard to get to unless you want to drive for hours and the accommodations are, shall I say, less than optimal. Who picked Yuma?

 

[Rocket354]

Who wants to go to Yuma? No disrespect to any AZB members that live there, but it's in the middle of nowhere, hard to get to unless you want to drive for hours and the accommodations are, shall I say, less than optimal. Who picked Yuma?

Agreed. The decision reeks of either extreme cost-cutting, or total incompetence, or both.