Jump stick rule change??

[Lowell]

It is interesting that many refer to safeties that prevent jumps as lockup safeties. That says a lot about the lost skill of kicking.

I was thinking along the lines of a kick that would have to be 3 + rails just to make contact

 

[David in FL]

It is interesting that many refer to safeties that prevent jumps as lockup safeties. That says a lot about the lost skill of kicking.

It's more interesting that there are those that call rolling the cue ball behind something that the average 450/APA 5 can hop over a "good" safety.

Either a kick or a jump may or may not be the right play for any given set of circumstances. I can follow or draw with a jump better under most circumstances. I can also shallow or steepen rebound or finely control cue/object ball speed better with a kick under most circumstances.

Just because someone learns a new skill doesn't mean they've lost one they've already learned. Anyone who sees these 2 skills as interchangeable likely isn't very good at either...

 

[TexasShooter]

It's more interesting that there are those that call rolling the cue ball behind something that the average 450/APA 5 can hop over a "good" safety.

Either a kick or a jump may or may not be the right play for any given set of circumstances. I can follow or draw with a jump better under most circumstances. I can also shallow or steepen rebound or finely control cue/object ball speed better with a kick under most circumstances.

Just because someone learns a new skill doesn't mean they've lost one they've already learned. Anyone who sees these 2 skills as interchangeable likely isn't very good at either...

I’m referring to mostly newer players that learn how to jump without ever bothering to learn the kick. Many lower skilled players will grab the jumper before ever considering a kick.

 

[GideonF]

I’m referring to mostly newer players that learn how to jump without ever bothering to learn the kick. Many lower skilled players will grab the jumper before ever considering a kick.

I agree that this is a thing. But either these players will eventually learn how to kick or they will hit a wall when they start playing people who play better safeties.

 

[David in FL]

I’m referring to mostly newer players that learn how to jump without ever bothering to learn the kick. Many lower skilled players will grab the jumper before ever considering a kick.

Understood, and you're not wrong. But these "arguments" for changing rules apply to all players.

If I don't want an APA 5 to jump out of my "safe", I tell myself to play a better safe. I don't try to take away his jump cue.

And for whatever it's worth, I love seeing that APA 5 pick up a jump cue. It's usually one of the better shots in my bag...

 

[TexasShooter]

Understood, and you're not wrong. But these "arguments" for changing rules apply to all players.

If I don't want an APA 5 to jump out of my "safe", I tell myself to play a better safe. I don't try to take away his jump cue.

And for whatever it's worth, I love seeing that APA 5 pick up a jump cue. It's usually one of the better shots in my bag...

I love it unless it’s a teammate, in that case, I shake my head.

 

[David in FL]

I love it unless it’s a teammate, in that case, I shake my head.

You're not wrong!

Better than that, I have a rule on my teams that nobody can shoot a draw shot with ball in hand without prior permission.

It's a bit of a soft rule that's very occasionally broken, but the point is made nevertheless.

 

[Railbird-2026]

Did not know this. I "shared" a table once with Jarvis before a tourney. He piled a truckload of racks on me lol. Strickland's the only one I can think of who excelled at full stick jumping. That would come under outstanding skill but isn't that really abusive to thin cloth tables?

Raphael Martinez was the best full cue jumper I have played against or have seen.

 

[JPB2]

I've made this argument for over thirty years. The happy medium solution is to allow the jump cue only on the first shot of a player's inning. I agree that a player that hooks him/herself should not find any relief in the jump cue.

This year at the 10 ball in Las Vegas one particular rack gets me to disagree with this approach. Opponent hooked Jasmin and she called and made the 2 rail kick. She hooked herself as perfect control after making a kick after being hooked is not easy. She then called and made the jump and controlled the cueball for position. She ran out. The rack tested various skills and she needed them to win. I wasn’t left with the impression that her jump cue cheapened the game, although I don’t prefer the shade of purple her sponsor uses.

 

[TexasShooter]

You're not wrong!

Better than that, I have a rule on my teams that nobody can shoot a draw shot with ball in hand without prior permission.

It's a bit of a soft rule that's very occasionally broken, but the point is made nevertheless.

Watching a draw shot with ball in hand is also blood pressure riser.

 

[sjm]

This year at the 10 ball in Las Vegas one particular rack gets me to disagree with this approach. Opponent hooked Jasmin and she called and made the 2 rail kick. She hooked herself as perfect control after making a kick after being hooked is not easy. She then called and made the jump and controlled the cueball for position. She ran out. The rack tested various skills and she needed them to win. I wasn’t left with the impression that her jump cue cheapened the game, although I don’t prefer the shade of purple her sponsor uses.

Yup, no rule will be uniformly perfect, and I can also imagine a scenario or two in which a player might play shape onto a jump but, in my opinion, the exceptions do not make the "jump on the first shot of an inning only" rule unwise.

 

[David in FL]

Yup, no rule will be uniformly perfect, and I can also imagine a scenario or two in which a player might play shape onto a jump but, in my opinion, the exceptions do not make the "jump on the first shot of an inning only" rule unwise.

So, same rule for a kick shot? The second has to be a jump?

Silliness.

 

[sjm]

So, same rule for a kick shot? The second has to be a jump?

Silliness.

Not sure what the kick shot has to do with this discussion, but I agree with you that some silliness will come with any flavor of a rule. I feel players should be penalized when they carelessly hook themselves, which happens all the time. It was that way for decades before the jump stick arrived, and I'd prefer it if it were that way again. Position play error forgiveness is the real problem with allowing the jump stick on anything but the first shot of an inning.

I've seen several Fargo 400 players who can execute almost any jump, but kicking requires a lot more skill.

 

[David in FL]

Not sure what the kick shot has to do with this discussion, but I agree with you that some silliness will come with any flavor of a rule. I feel players should be penalized when they carelessly hook themselves, which happens all the time. It was that way for decades before the jump stick arrived, and I'd prefer it if it were that way again. Position play error forgiveness is the real problem with allowing the jump stick on anything but the first shot of an inning.

I've seen several Fargo 400 players who can execute almost any jump, but kicking requires a lot more skill.

The point is if somebody carelessly hooks themselves after a kick shot, should you not allow them to kick again? After all, they got lucky accidentally they should be penalized for that and not allowed to kick again, right?

If you wanna go back to the old push out game that's fine, but to just apply a rule because of the type of shot that's being played is silly.

 

[sjm]

The point is if somebody carelessly hooks themselves after a kick shot, should you not allow them to kick again?

Hooking yourself after a kick shot isn't careless. It is a fundamental risk of playing a kick shot, and sometimes having to kick a second time is and always has been a possible penalty. Among the reasons that people play safe is that opponents can so rarely control the full outcome of a kick shot. Contrastingly, playing position poorly is careless and should come with a stiff penalty, just as it did for decades.

Again, I cannot see how kicking is even relevant to this discussion.

 

[straightline]

Hooking yourself after a kick shot isn't careless. It is a fundamental risk of playing a kick shot, and sometimes having to kick a second time is and always has been a possible penalty. Among the reasons that people play safe is that opponents can so rarely control the full outcome of a kick shot. Contrastingly, playing position poorly is careless and should come with a stiff penalty, just as it did for decades.

Again, I cannot see how kicking is even relevant to this discussion.

A sequence of kicks might be a requirement of acquiring the winning position. Valuable options abound.