Team USA and the future of the Mosconi

[jbart65]

The message here seems to be that American participation in WNT has hit bottom and that we have almost nobody worthy of playing on Team USA. It also seems that there is little help on the way.

Team Europe would be wise to take a dive this year just to ensure that this annual encounter can continue.

This was a remark by sjm on the U.S. Open thread after I wrote a post on how thin the U.S. “bench” is for future Mosconi teams.

I thought a discussion of the future of the Mosconi warranted a separate thread. So here we go. Here is the first in a series of posts.

Warning. Each post is not so long, but cumulatively, it's a long read.

 

[jbart65]

The message here seems to be that American participation in WNT has hit bottom and that we have almost nobody worthy of playing on Team USA. It also seems that there is little help on the way.

Team Europe would be wise to take a dive this year just to ensure that this annual encounter can continue.

Ah, now you know why Matchroom has expanded so much in the U.S. in the past two years. The overriding goal is to ensure the success and survival of Team USA in the Mosconi Cup by improving the talent pool in America.

To that end, MR created two new majors, the Florida and Arizona opens, and added secondary events such as Vice City and Phoenix.

Frazer has also mentioned the desire for a major Texas Open and another big event on the West Coast.

The two-pronged strategy is straight forward.

Matchroom wants to provide more opportunities for young American pros (ages 20-25) to attend WNT events, play against the very best players in the world and improve their games. They would not be able to afford to do that absent more WNT events in the United States.

Payne McBride and Harrison Leinen, for instance, played in all five WNT events in August. These two have a good chance to be on future Mosconi teams.

Matchroom also wants to create a pathway to the pros – previously nonexistent - for talented American juniors to increase the talent pool for future USA Mosconi teams.

MR operated three major tournaments this year for juniors in Florida, Arizona and Frisco. We saw some very impressive American youngsters, including Haydn Ernst (15), Austin Axe (14), Colston Harrelson (14) and … Gavin Mathew (12).

 

[jbart65]

The U.S. expansion, as it's turned out, has been far more successful than Matchroom probably expected.

The first ah-ha moment came when the Mosconi Cup was moved to Florida two years ago. The event had a large, rowdy crowd and great atmosphere that may have been better than any other U.S.-hosted Mosconi.

Frazer, in fact, wants fans to engage like this at all WNT events.

The success paved the way for the Florida Open, another eye-raising moment for Matchroom.

These two events underscored to Matchroom the importance of the South and Southwest as prime locations for pro pool. Bigger audiences than in other parts of the U.S., more space and cheaper costs to boot.

The relocation of the U.S. Open to Texas was obviously an offshoot of this recognition of where pool in the U.S. is most popular.

You were in Frisco, sjm. The big audience there was probably the loudest I’ve heard (on TV) at a Matchroom major aside from the 2024 Hanoi Open (Chua vs. Ko Pin Yi).

Matchroom needs bigger and louder audiences to improve the viewing experience, attract new viewers and ideally pull in advertisers outside the pool industry.

Oh, and to get on and stay on mainstream TV networks such as ESPN (I’ll get to that later).

 

[jbart65]

An even bigger recognition on Matchroom’s part is that the commercial success of the WNT is dependent on a strong presence in America.

For the first several years, the WNT expanded elsewhere - Europe and Asia. They wanted to globalize the game.

That’s all well and good, but the fact is, the U.S. is the world’s richest country. It’s home to millions of players and potential viewers. It’s also home to potentially more advertising dollars.

My guess is, the WNT is not generating much revenue in Europe. Ticket sales to the UK and European opens have been mediocre and media visibility isn’t all that great. WNT doesn’t get along great with the governing bodies of European pool, either.

Asia has plenty of fans. They showed up in a big way in Hanoi, and to some extent, the Philippines Open. But many Asian countries are relatively poor. I am not sure how MR monetizes events in Asia.

Not only that, Chinese 8-ball and 9-ball, with their big prize funds, could attract many top Asian players and diminish the Asian market for Matchroom. There was no Hanoi Open this year. I really do wonder if there is going to be another.

So where is the revenue going to come from? The U.S. is still the best bet.

 

[jbart65]

One of Matchroom’s biggest pushes, it appears to me, is to bring more viewers into WNT.TV. That’s why, much to my surprise, they really did create a WNT.TV app.

The viewing experience on the app is so much better and reliable than web viewing.

Some fans - er, skog - complained about matches involving Americans being put on the TV table when better matches (on paper) were also taking place.

I have to believe that’s because the majority of WNT.TV subscribers are in the U.S. But it could also be because the event was being aired on ESPN+.

Whatever the case, the relative success of WNT.TV probably relies heavily on American customers. It helps if WNT has lots of U.S. events at hours Americans fans watch.

Even better, the new app allows viewers to watch wherever they are in the world, in real time, without knowing the score.

App revenue has limits, though. Just how many WNT.TV subscribers are realistic? Assuming even a modest 10,000 annual subscribers globally, revenue would amount to just $1.2 million a year.

Realistically, WNT would need 100,000 subscribers to get a decent windfall ($12 million) from its app. I see little evidence that’s an achievable goal, given the stinginess and small size of the avidly pool-viewing public.

 

[jbart65]

Which brings me back to the Mosconi - sorry for the diversion.

In repeated interviews, Emily Frazer has stressed the Mosconi Cup is by far the biggest event in pool. From a money standpoint, of course, and a publicity standpoint.

We at AZB all know that. Nothing new there.

What is critical to understand is that the Mosconi is behind everything MR does in pro pool. Everything.

No Mosconi, Frazer has implied, means no real future for pro pool beyond what now exists. And flatly, imo, no future for Matchroom’s continued involvement in the sport.

Hence the expansion into the U.S., as I explained in prior posts.

This is where ESPN comes in.

 

[jbart65]

Consider the deal with ESPN to cover the U.S. Open. ESPN was willing to televising the Mosconi Cup - that was the critical lure for Matchroom. The Mosconi is made for TV.

Somehow MR parlayed ESPN’s willingness to show the Mosconi into getting the network to carry the U.S. Open, too.

Getting on ESPN addresses three key MR objectives.

The first one is to reach a broader audience. Pool needs more than just diehards to be a commercial success. Frazer said pool will always be a niche sport, but she thinks its niche can be much bigger than it is right now.

Just being on ESPN+ could expose pro pool and the WNT TV to millions of casual viewers, even if for just a few minutes.

The second objective, which ties to the first, is to use the ESPN partnership to bring in bigger advertisers outside the pool industry. Being on ESPN gives the WNT cachet.

Realistically, pro pool will never grow from a small niche to a somewhat bigger niche without outside money. Getting Olympic status - a pursuit that does not involve MR - would help in that regard.

I doubt, by the way, that ESPN is paying any money to WNT to air the U.S. Open and the Mosconi.

Perhaps WNT got a slice of ad revenue, but exposure on ESPN alone is well worth the cost even if Matchroom did not get a dime in return.

 

[jbart65]

I said the deal with ESPN served three Matchroom goals. The third goal is to make pro pool seem more respectable.

Frazer hopes people seeing the event on ESPN, particularly parents of young U.S. pool players, will help remove the sport from the shadow of its shady American past. Perhaps young players and their families will start to see pool as a potentially solid way to make a living.

The new junior events feed into that. They take place alongside major pro events, offer surprisingly decent money and are organized in a very professional manner. The ties to ESPN can only help.

Making the WNT appear as professional as possible is a big emphasis for Frazer. That’s why the tour does not allow jeans and has a dress code, among other things.

 

[Jaden]

This was a remark by sjm on the U.S. Open thread after I wrote a post on how thin the U.S. “bench” is for future Mosconi teams.

I thought a discussion of the future of the Mosconi warranted a separate thread. So here we go. Here is the first in a series of posts.

Warning. Each post is not so long, but cumulatively, it's a long read.

Why on earth would you tarnish a staple of pool with even the suggestion that someone would take a dive. Yes, we know you hate american pool players and that this is likely just an attempt to have an excuse if the US wins this year. Pathetic.

 

[jbart65]

Is the talent in the U.S. still here, however?

I am no expert, and have no plans to become one. Yet Jeremy Jones insists the talent pool in American junior ranks might be the best ever.

Gavin Mathew, JJ has said, is the best 12-year-old he has ever seen. He thinks Haydn Ernest, 15, is the best young American player to come along since Styer and Woodward.

Scott Frost, for his part, sees Payne McBride as a future Mosconi player.

Are they acting merely as WNT/Mosconi salesmen? Maybe, but I see no reason to disbelieve them, based on seeing these players myself.

These youngsters are still several years away, or more, from Mosconi consideration.

Assuming they continue to play pool - no sure thing. Most American kids go off to college and get a “real job.”

 

[jbart65]

In the meantime, Team USA still has enough talent to be competitive for a while.

I figure Shane is likely to play another five years. Gorst and Styer will play a lot longer than that, of course.

I do wonder how long Woodward will remain in the game. He’s not earning enough in pool tournaments to support a family. If he doesn’t have another job already, I would imagine he feels the need to get one.

Billy Thorpe got a job. He is no longer a fulltime pro. He started his own construction demolition company.

Justin Bergman is a Band-Aid at best. He’s 39.

At some point, Jesus Atencio or Vitaly Patsura will get green cards, maybe even citizenship. Their names will be in the mix.

 

[jbart65]

Among the native born, Fracasso-Verner, 25, will probably be the next under-30 player to join the Mosconi if he returns to good health. He was on track to surpass Billy Thorpe in talent and ability, but he still would be the 10th best player in a Mosconi event.

At this point, it’s probably not worth speculating beyond Lukas.

Sam Henderson, Payne McBride, Nathan Childress, Landon Hollingsworth and Harrison Leinen could all be in the mix. Or not.

American players clearly develop late. The route to the pros is more jagged and ragged than in Europe and Asia. That’s why WNT has stepped in - and Predator, too, with its junior events.

Most parents will want their kids to go to college. My guess is some talents whose names we won’t know will emerge suddenly to fill in the gaps. There’s little use in trying to figure out who they are. When they are ready they will announce themselves.

 

[jbart65]

Final thought:

Maybe Frazer is dreaming. Maybe pool will never get any bigger than it is now commercially or attract a lot of money and attention. Maybe it will stay a small niche hardly noticed by the broader public in the U.S. and abroad.

But at least Matchroom and WNT are giving it a shot. Nothing is possible if you don’t try.

 

[jbart65]

Why on earth would you tarnish a staple of pool with even the suggestion that someone would take a dive. Yes, we know you hate american pool players and that this is likely just an attempt to have an excuse if the US wins this year. Pathetic.

As sjm said, he was speaking mostly in jest, disappointed by the U.S. performance in recent Mosconi's and the slim pool of future talent to make USA more competitive.

 

[skogstokig]

One of Matchroom’s biggest pushes, it appears to me, is to bring more viewers into WNT.TV. That’s why, much to my surprise, they really did create a WNT.TV app.

The viewing experience on the app is so much better and reliable than web viewing.

Some fans - er, skog - complained about matches involving Americans being put on the TV table when better matches (on paper) were also taking place.

I have to believe that’s because the majority of WNT.TV subscribers are in the U.S. But it could also be because the event was being aired on ESPN+.

Whatever the case, the relative success of WNT.TV probably relies heavily on American customers. It helps if WNT has lots of U.S. events at hours Americans fans watch.

Even better, the new app allows viewers to watch wherever they are in the world, in real time, without knowing the score.

App revenue has limits, though. Just how many WNT.TV subscribers are realistic? Assuming even a modest 10,000 annual subscribers globally, revenue would amount to just $1.2 million a year.

Realistically, WNT would need 100,000 subscribers to get a decent windfall ($12 million) from its app. I see little evidence that’s an achievable goal, given the stinginess and small size of the avidly pool-viewing public.

yes, it's common for WNT to have more american players on tv1 at the US open, more vietnamese at hanoi open, etc. i get it. but do that in earlier rounds, and pick the best potential match when it's single elim..

 

[sudocrushms]

Put me in, coach! I can get destroyed by elite Euros just as easily as anyone.

 

[sjm]

Ah, now you know why Matchroom has expanded so much in the U.S. in the past two years. The overriding goal is to ensure the success and survival of Team USA in the Mosconi Cup by improving the talent pool in America.

To that end, MR created two new majors, the Florida and Arizona opens, and added secondary events such as Vice City and Phoenix.

I think the motives extend beyond this.

We are already seeing some of the top Asians bowing out of WNT play, in large part because they can now earn a solid living at home through the Duya Tour and Heyball. There are also high-purse Predator PBS events in Asia, with events in both Vietnam and Indonesia in the next month.

If the Americans continue to skip or perform poorly at the WNT majors, they will stop showing up. Three members of Team USA from 2025 (SVB, Woodward, Thorpe) skipped both of the two WNT majors contested in Europe. Even when they do show up in American-based events, they are failing (0 quarterfinalists at Vice City, 2 quarterfinalists at the Florida Open, 1 quarterfinalist at the Arizona Open, 1 quarterfinalist at the Phoenix Open and 1 quarterfinalist at the US Open). The American players, as a group, are in a very long slump and American fans will gradually lose interest unless some young American players emerge as world class players.

I am sure Matchroom realizes that if Asian and American participation in WNT events continues to decline and American results continue to disappoint, their tour will become a chiefly European tour which will not draw too many eyes elsewhere.

As American pros, because of their mediocre results, must manage their participation costs more than most, building a greater presence in America might just be their only shot, and the Matchroom management team is a capable one that surely understands this.

Frazer has also mentioned the desire for a major Texas Open and another big event on the West Coast.

That would be nice.

Payne McBride and Harrison Leinen, for instance, played in all five WNT events in August. These two have a good chance to be on future Mosconi teams.

Yeah, I have no idea how far either will rise, but at least there is steady progress from these two young players and they appear sufficiently committed to their development.

Matchroom also wants to create a pathway to the pros – previously nonexistent - for talented American juniors to increase the talent pool for future USA Mosconi teams.

I do not see much progress being made in this respect. Perhaps, though, I am uninformed.

MR operated three major tournaments this year for juniors in Florida, Arizona and Frisco. We saw some very impressive American youngsters, including Haydn Ernst (17), Austin Axe (14), Colston Harrelson (14) and … Gavin Mathew (12).

I think Hayden Ernst is just 14. Matchroom's commitment to having junior events in conjunction with their majors is something I ave always admired. They do it in America as well as at majors contested elsewhere. Yes, some of these youngsters have possibilities.

 

[jay helfert]

Consider the deal with ESPN to cover the U.S. Open. ESPN was willing to televising the Mosconi Cup - that was the critical lure for Matchroom. The Mosconi is made for TV.

Somehow MR parlayed ESPN’s willingness to show the Mosconi into getting the network to carry the U.S. Open, too.

Getting on ESPN addresses three key MR objectives.

The first one is to reach a broader audience. Pool needs more than just diehards to be a commercial success. Frazer said pool will always be a niche sport, but she thinks its niche can be much bigger than it is right now.

Just being on ESPN+ could expose pro pool and the WNT TV to millions of casual viewers, even if for just a few minutes.

The second objective, which ties to the first, is to use the ESPN partnership to bring in bigger advertisers outside the pool industry. Being on ESPN gives the WNT cachet.

Realistically, pro pool will never grow from a small niche to a somewhat bigger niche without outside money. Getting Olympic status - a pursuit that does not involve MR - would help in that regard.

I doubt, by the way, that ESPN is paying any money to WNT to air the U.S. Open and the Mosconi.

Perhaps WNT got a slice of ad revenue, but exposure on ESPN alone is well worth the cost even if Matchroom did not get a dime in return.

It costs ESPN a helluva lot of money to produce these shows. There is a huge TV truck outside the arena. And a large crew. Plus the arena set up. It's called Production costs.

 

[sjm]

The U.S. expansion, as it's turned out, has been far more successful than Matchroom probably expected.

The first ah-ha moment came when the Mosconi Cup was moved to Florida two years ago. The event had a large, rowdy crowd and great atmosphere that may have been better than any other U.S.-hosted Mosconi.

Frazer, in fact, wants fans to engage like this at all WNT events.

Honestly, the crowds were equally loud and the buzz comparable when the Mosconi was in Las Vegas. That said, the new venue is excellent and there is more seating than there was in Las Vegas, so I agree that it's a step forward.

The success paved the way for the Florida Open, another eye-raising moment for Matchroom.

Definitely so. Florida pool fans are very enthusiastic, although their relative absence on Day 6 of the 2026 Florida Open was a bit puzzling.

You were in Frisco, sjm. The big audience there was probably the loudest I’ve heard (on TV) at a Matchroom major aside from the 2024 Hanoi Open (Chua vs. Ko Pin Yi).

Probably similar to the attendance and crowd noise last year at Harrah's, but I'm sure production csosts would have been less in Texas, so the move made a lot of sense.

Oh, and to get on and stay on mainstream TV networks such as ESPN (I’ll get to that later).

Agreed.

 

[garczar]

A bunch of rambling is all i see. Just WTF is this guy trying to say?