Top five 9Ball Players of all time?

Terry Ardeno said:
He was at his peak 20 years before he won his 6 World 9 Ball Championships
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I realize this post may be late to the game, but the link provided does not work.

However, There is a 25-minute video on YT of Lassiter playing Mosconi in a strange rotation game of 7-Ball Call-Shot. Luther would have been about 47-51, assuming the "4 World Championships" refer to his Jansco wins, and Willie about 52-56. (Lassiter won 6 World 9 Ball Championships there from the age of 44 till he was 53.)

Each player has a corner pocket for the 7, I think chosen assigned to the breaker. Rules include notification on two fouls, with three fouls equal loss of game. Each player wears a bowtie, long sleeve white shirt and black suit. The table looks moderately slow, and because of the ancient video I could not judge the pocket size, but once a cue ball spun into a side for no apparent reason.

It's still cool to see these two compete, Luther as usual chewing his gums, and Mosconi as stoic as a stone. Both have beautiful strokes.

 
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Well, it's a seventeen-year-old thread, so the omission of then 12-year-old Filler is forgivable. My top five, in order, in 2026, is:

1. Josh Filler
2. Mike Sigel
3. Earl Strickland
4. Shane Van Boening
5. Nick Varner

Omitting Greenleaf and Mosconi, Filler, who is just 29, has a resume of majors that already exceeds that of anyone that came before him. Including all disciplines:

Filler has won, at least once, each of the World 9-ball, the UK Open, the US Open 9ball, the China Open, the World 8-ball, the Qatar 10ball, the European Open 9ball, the European 14.1, the European 10ball, the Las Vegas Open 10ball, the Bali 10ball, the American 14.1, the Derby City 9ball, the Derby City banks, the Derby City Master of the Table, the Buffalo Billiards one-pocket, the World Pool Masters, and the World Cup of Pool. Just for good measure he also has double digit Euro-tour titles, has been Mosconi MVP, and he has won both a silver and a bronze at the World 10ball.

Josh is the most prolific collector of major titles of the last fifty years. His has the most complete competitive resume of titles since Mike Sigel, and it will greatly exceed that of Mike Sigel before he hangs up his cue. No doubt that 9ball is his best game, and he plays it at a level never seen before.

The sick thing, though, is that the next generation of pool players might well produce a 9ball player better than Filler. After all, that's how it usually goes.
 
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sjm said:
Well, it's a seventeen-year-old thread, so the omission of then 12-year-old Filler is forgivable. My top five, in order, in 2026, is:

1. Josh Filler
2. Mike Sigel
3. Earl Strickland
4. Shane Van Boening
5. Nick Varner

Omitting Greenleaf and Mosconi, Filler, who is just 29, has a resume of majors that already exceeds that of anyone that came before him. Including all disciplines:

Filler has won, at least once, each of the World 9-ball, the UK Open, the US Open 9ball, the China Open, the World 8-ball, the Qatar 10ball, the European Open 9ball, the European 14.1, the European 10ball, the Las Vegas Open 10ball, the Bali 10ball, the American 14.1, the Derby City 9ball, the Derby City banks, the Derby City Master of the Table, the Buffalo Billiards one-pocket, the World Pool Masters, and the World Cup of Pool. Just for good measure he also has double digit Euro-tour titles, has been Mosconi MVP, and he has won both a silver and a bronze at the World 10ball.

Josh is the most prolific collector of major titles of the last fifty years. His has the most complete competitive resume of titles since Mike Sigel, and it will greatly exceed that of Mike Sigel before he hangs up his cue. No doubt that 9ball is his best game, and he plays it at a level never seen before.

The sick thing, though, is that the next generation of pool players might well produce a 9ball player better than Filler. After all, that's how it usually goes.
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I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Josh is currently my favorite player, but it is WAY TOO early to add him to best of all time conversations and to put him ahead of Shane at this point, is prima facie ridiculous.
 
sjm said:
Well, it's a seventeen-year-old thread, so the omission of then 12-year-old Filler is forgivable. My top five, in order, in 2026, is:

1. Josh Filler
2. Mike Sigel
3. Earl Strickland
4. Shane Van Boening
5. Nick Varner

Omitting Greenleaf and Mosconi, Filler, who is just 29, has a resume of majors that already exceeds that of anyone that came before him. Including all disciplines:

Filler has won, at least once, each of the World 9-ball, the UK Open, the US Open 9ball, the China Open, the World 8-ball, the Qatar 10ball, the European Open 9ball, the European 14.1, the European 10ball, the Las Vegas Open 10ball, the Bali 10ball, the American 14.1, the Derby City 9ball, the Derby City banks, the Derby City Master of the Table, the Buffalo Billiards one-pocket, the World Pool Masters, and the World Cup of Pool. Just for good measure he also has double digit Euro-tour titles, has been Mosconi MVP, and he has won both a silver and a bronze at the World 10ball.

Josh is the most prolific collector of major titles of the last fifty years. His has the most complete competitive resume of titles since Mike Sigel, and it will greatly exceed that of Mike Sigel before he hangs up his cue. No doubt that 9ball is his best game, and he plays it at a level never seen before.

The sick thing, though, is that the next generation of pool players might well produce a 9ball player better than Filler. After all, that's how it usually goes.
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Change that to top 5 green room players and the list drastically changes.
 
sjm said:
Well, it's a seventeen-year-old thread, so the omission of then 12-year-old Filler is forgivable. My top five, in order, in 2026, is:

1. Josh Filler
2. Mike Sigel
3. Earl Strickland
4. Shane Van Boening
5. Nick Varner

Omitting Greenleaf and Mosconi, Filler, who is just 29, has a resume of majors that already exceeds that of anyone that came before him. Including all disciplines:

Filler has won, at least once, each of the World 9-ball, the UK Open, the US Open 9ball, the China Open, the World 8-ball, the Qatar 10ball, the European Open 9ball, the European 14.1, the European 10ball, the Las Vegas Open 10ball, the Bali 10ball, the American 14.1, the Derby City 9ball, the Derby City banks, the Derby City Master of the Table, the Buffalo Billiards one-pocket, the World Pool Masters, and the World Cup of Pool. Just for good measure he also has double digit Euro-tour titles, has been Mosconi MVP, and he has won both a silver and a bronze at the World 10ball.

Josh is the most prolific collector of major titles of the last fifty years. His has the most complete competitive resume of titles since Mike Sigel, and it will greatly exceed that of Mike Sigel before he hangs up his cue. No doubt that 9ball is his best game, and he plays it at a level never seen before.

The sick thing, though, is that the next generation of pool players might well produce a 9ball player better than Filler. After all, that's how it usually goes.
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Maybe but you're still talking about 3-5 years of play, not 20. Archer was the best player for over a decade, Efren for 4, Shane for 2, a few years just doesn't cut it, sorry.
 
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Josh is currently my favorite player, but it is WAY TOO early to add him to best of all time conversations and to put him ahead of Shane at this point, is prima facie ridiculous.

My suggestion is that you make a list of major titles that Shane has won. You'll see that it pales by comparison to the list compiled by Josh, and Shane has been at it for 20 years to Josh's 10.

At 29, Josh has won more majors than Shane did in his entire career. Shane is, notably, missing the China Open (every bit as hard to win as the US Open 9ball until recently, possibly harder) and is missing nearly all of the ten ball majors (most notably the Las Vegas Open, Bali Open, Qatar Open, World 10ball). Josh has won the gold medal at the World Games and Shane has not. Each has a World 9ball and a World 8ball, but Shane has just one WNT major outside of the World 9ball (Florida Open) while Josh has three (2 UK Opens and 1 European Open). Josh has won the WPA World Teams Championship 10ball and Shane has not. Whether you look at the 9ball majors or the 10ball majors, Josh has outshone Shane by quite a bit.

Shane's five US Open 9balls is awesome, legendary indeed, but so is Filler's 1 US Open, 3 China Opens and 1 World Games gold. To that point of the comparison, there's a discussion, but Josh has also won major championships all over the globe on a very regular basis and Shane has not. That's why Shane is missing so many of the majors on his resume and Josh is not.

Finally, in Shane's words [Josh has schooled him for most of Josh's career].

Do your homework and you'll see that it's Shane that is not even in the conversation.

Now, that said, I'm listening if you want to suggest that Sigel has a better resume than Josh. Mike is the only player that can be reckoned top five of all time in both straight pool and 9ball and that's an awfully high standard for anyone to match. There's only one Mike Sigel.
 
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Lowell said:
Ko Ping Chung could have ended up entering this discussion if he didn't give up Western pool
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Yeah, Ko Ping Chung is something special.

Your point is not as intriguing a possibility as how much Wu Jiaqing would have achieved had he played pool full time over the past twenty years. He was as talented as anyone that's ever tried their hand at pool and might have been the 9ball GOAT under different circumstances. Of course, as we all recall, to win the 2019 US Open 9ball, which many feel featured the strongest field we've ever seen at a major, Filler had to beat Wu in the final. It might have been the start of the greatest rivalry even seen in our game, even above Sigel/Varner.

... ah, for what might have been.
 
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sjm said:
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Josh is currently my favorite player, but it is WAY TOO early to add him to best of all time conversations and to put him ahead of Shane at this point, is prima facie ridiculous.

My suggestion is that you make a list of major titles that Shane has won. You'll see that it pales by comparison to the list compiled by Josh, and Shane has been at it for 20 years to Josh's 10.

At 29, Josh has won more majors than Shane did in his entire career. Shane is, notably, missing the China Open (every bit as hard to win as the US Open 9ball until recently, possibly harder) and is missing nearly all of the ten ball majors (most notably the Las Vegas Open, Bali Open, Qatar Open, World 10ball). Josh has won the gold medal at the World Games and Shane has not. Each has a World 9ball and a World 8ball, but Shane has just one WNT major outside of the World 9ball (Florida Open) while Josh has three (2 UK Opens and 1 European Open). Josh has won the WPA World Teams Championship 10ball and Shane has not. Whether you look at the 9ball majors or the 10ball majors, Josh has outshone Shane by quite a bit.

Shane's five US Open 9balls is awesome, legendary indeed, but so is Filler's 1 US Open, 3 China Opens and 1 World Games gold. To that point of the comparison, there's a discussion, but Josh has also won major championships all over the globe on a very regular basis and Shane has not. That's why Shane is missing so many of the majors on his resume and Josh is not.

Finally, in Shane's words [Josh has schooled him for most of Josh's career].

Do your homework and you'll see that it's Shane that is not even in the conversation.

Now, that said, I'm listening if you want to suggest that Sigel has a better resume than Josh. Mike is the only player that can be reckoned top five of all time in both straight pool and 9ball and that's an awfully high standard for anyone to match. There's only one Mike Sigel.
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I agree Josh is great and the best player today, and entering the conversation for greatest of all time. But a few points:

1) you use 10b titles in response to a 9b ranking list. That is disingenuous.
2) you use WNT titles, a fairly recent metric, to compare a player at his peak to a player who peaked before WNT was a thing. That the post-peak player still has done amazingly well in his 40s vs the crop of hotshots in their 20s is a point in his favor.
3) Related to number 3, there are significantly more titles in general to be won nowadays, which is advantageous to those who are currently at their peak.
4) World Games gold medal? Really? That was Josh vs nobodies because only Josh (which is to his credit) cared enough to travel and compete for no real financial gain. That you feel necessary to use that as supporting evidence actually detracts from your point.
5) Teams championship? In 10b?? This is a single-player 9b discussion. Another piece of evidence that detracts from your point.

Given how much of your argument lies in games other than 9b, and in titles that didn't exist during Shane's peak, I am less convinced than I was before reading that post that Josh is better than Shane at 9b. And I'm someone fully on the Josh bus for best player of this generation.
 
best tournament player of all time, or best player of all time. two different scenarios .

some of the absolute best did not play in many tournaments, so do not have a record of wins in perfect playing conditions.

filler and svb is far the best by records i guess. but how would they fair against lassiter, willis, searcy, worst, in say virginia assuming both in their primes playing for all their own money
on hot humid summer days no air conditioning.

efren and parica would do fine
 
sjm said:
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Josh is currently my favorite player, but it is WAY TOO early to add him to best of all time conversations and to put him ahead of Shane at this point, is prima facie ridiculous.

My suggestion is that you make a list of major titles that Shane has won. You'll see that it pales by comparison to the list compiled by Josh, and Shane has been at it for 20 years to Josh's 10.

At 29, Josh has won more majors than Shane did in his entire career. Shane is, notably, missing the China Open (every bit as hard to win as the US Open 9ball until recently, possibly harder) and is missing nearly all of the ten ball majors (most notably the Las Vegas Open, Bali Open, Qatar Open, World 10ball). Josh has won the gold medal at the World Games and Shane has not. Each has a World 9ball and a World 8ball, but Shane has just one WNT major outside of the World 9ball (Florida Open) while Josh has three (2 UK Opens and 1 European Open). Josh has won the WPA World Teams Championship 10ball and Shane has not. Whether you look at the 9ball majors or the 10ball majors, Josh has outshone Shane by quite a bit.

Shane's five US Open 9balls is awesome, legendary indeed, but so is Filler's 1 US Open, 3 China Opens and 1 World Games gold. To that point of the comparison, there's a discussion, but Josh has also won major championships all over the globe on a very regular basis and Shane has not. That's why Shane is missing so many of the majors on his resume and Josh is not.

Finally, in Shane's words [Josh has schooled him for most of Josh's career].

Do your homework and you'll see that it's Shane that is not even in the conversation.

Now, that said, I'm listening if you want to suggest that Sigel has a better resume than Josh. Mike is the only player that can be reckoned top five of all time in both straight pool and 9ball and that's an awfully high standard for anyone to match. There's only one Mike Sigel.
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Still don't agree. When Shane was dominating there weren't any where near as many tourneys as there are now and Shane is still a danger to win any of them.

Give it another 5 or 10 years with Josh doing what he's doing and I'll agree with you, but I'm sorry, he's not there yet.
 
Rocket354 said:
World Games gold medal? Really? That was Josh vs nobodies because only Josh (which is to his credit) cared enough to travel and compete for no real financial gain. That you feel necessary to use that as supporting evidence actually detracts from your point.
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Shows you don't know what you're talking about. When Josh won his World Games gold medal in 2022, each of the following players was in the field: Albin Ouschan, Carlo Biado, Shane Van Boening, Francisco Sanchez Ruiz, and Aloysius Yapp. It was a stacked field with multiple World 9ball champions and at least five of them are either Hall of Famers or future Hall of Famers.
 
Rocket354 said:
I agree Josh is great and the best player today, and entering the conversation for greatest of all time. But a few points:

1) you use 10b titles in response to a 9b ranking list. That is disingenuous.
2) you use WNT titles, a fairly recent metric, to compare a player at his peak to a player who peaked before WNT was a thing. That the post-peak player still has done amazingly well in his 40s vs the crop of hotshots in their 20s is a point in his favor.
3) Related to number 3, there are significantly more titles in general to be won nowadays, which is advantageous to those who are currently at their peak.
4) World Games gold medal? Really? That was Josh vs nobodies because only Josh (which is to his credit) cared enough to travel and compete for no real financial gain. That you feel necessary to use that as supporting evidence actually detracts from your point.
5) Teams championship? In 10b?? This is a single-player 9b discussion. Another piece of evidence that detracts from your point.

Given how much of your argument lies in games other than 9b, and in titles that didn't exist during Shane's peak, I am less convinced than I was before reading that post that Josh is better than Shane at 9b. And I'm someone fully on the Josh bus for best player of this generation.
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I respect your right to your opinion, but Shane, an undisputed all-time legend, is not post-peak. He plays better pool than he ever has, and this is a very popular view on AZB. Especially tactically, he is way better than he was when he was winning US Open 9ball titles. He shone in the world of 1 on the spot, 4 1/2" pockets, and break from anywhere in the kitchen, for his break was the best in the world back in the day under those playing conditions. He was also not facing the much tougher fields of today that have resulted from when pool went internationally viral about a decade ago. Now, the fields are much tougher and the game more difficult, a more well-rounded skill set is needed to win the toughest titles.

FYI, as often discussed on the forum back then, the four 9ball majors in Shane's prime were, unquestionably, the World 9ball, the All-Japan, the China Open and the US Open. Yes, Shane won five US Opens, an amazing feat, but those fields were a lot easier before the game went globally viral about 10 years ago. Many of the stars of Aisa skipped the US Open 9bball each year, although they were always at the other three internaitonal majors. Still, until 2022, aged 39, Shane hadn't won any of the other three, and he played in all of them. His performance at the events having the toughest international fields was not very good during most of his prime. Let's not pretend that Shane did anything close to dominating at the international majors during his prime. He did not.

Of course, it's all a matter of opinion, and there's no right answer. I mentioned 10ball because most people consider it to be Shane's best game, but also because half the majors are now 10ball. Still, Josh's best game by far is 9ball, and in an era where winning 9ball majors is tougher than it ever has, he still collects a whole lot of titles.

In the end, we're comparing two vintage models here, and whatever we think, it's fun to delight in both of them.
 
sjm said:
Shows you don't know what you're talking about. When Josh won his World Games gold medal in 2022, each of the following players was in the field: Albin Ouschan, Carlo Biado, Shane Van Boening, Francisco Sanchez Ruiz, and Aloysius Yapp. It was a stacked field with multiple World 9ball champions and at least five of them are either Hall of Famers or future Hall of Famers.
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Apologies for the faulty memory. I just remembered a bunch of no-names. Looking it up, it was a tougher field than I remembered. Mea culpa. The other points still stand.
 
Jpac
FairL
Philly
bbb
GoldCrown

Substitutes
David in F
Chop
WildWing
DeadMoney
 
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cant argue that svb and filler are not the best or close to the best pool players that ever lived. more time will tell. but in any case they both are right up there.

but the list is long and most are very close. and it has to consider proficiency in all games not just one or two.
in just 9 ball, certainly.
 
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maha said:
cant argue that svb and filler are not the best or close to the best pool players that ever lived. more time will tell. but in any case they both are right up there.

but the list is long and most are very close. and it has to consider proficiency in all games not just one or two.
in just 9 ball, certainly.
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Well said.
 
Big Money Mike said:
Who are your picks for the top five 9ball players of all time, mine are:

1. Earl Strickland-Run Out Machine
2. Mike Sigel-Awsome Firepower
3. Johnny Archer-Never Beats Himself
4. Buddy Hall-Perfect Position Play
5. Nick Varner-Also Never Beats Himself
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Good list, but Parica beats them all! Bustie could also be one of the top five.
 
My top five would have to be 10.

1. Lassiter
2. Worst
3. Parica
4. Earl
5. Sigel
6. Buddy
7. Varner
8. Filler
9. Shane
10. Mizerak

Honorable mention: Dennis, Bustie, and Efren.
 
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