The state of pool in the U.S. A 'Rip Van Winkle' view.

jbart65

Active member
Well, here it goes. My first thread.

I am sort of like a pool version of Rip Van Winkle. I played a ton as a youngster, then "slept" for 30 years before "reawakening" to the game again. I play a few hours a day now, go to the pool hall several times a month and watch a ton of professional pool, both new and old.

Since getting back into the game two years ago, I’ve been to a handful of pool halls in the Northeast. I’ve also played a lot with family and friends.

Here are my first-hand, if idiosyncratic, observations of the game in the U.S.

The first thing that strikes me is how little has changed compared to 30 years ago, when I was a kid playing at home on a so-so 8-foot table.

Most people who play casually or semi-regularly play 8-ball. Nine-ball is foreign to them.

Quite a few of them are actually decent at putting in balls, it turns out.

Take my best friend, Joe. He owns a nice table. He’s been playing for 40 years and thinks he’s pretty good relative to those he plays against. He can knock in 3-4 in a row every so often if the table isn’t so complicated.

But position play or position awareness? Very little if any.

Until I taught him, the words “follow,” “stun” and “draw” were foreign to him. He instinctively uses follow and stun - never draw except by accident - but he had no idea what they were.

Sometimes he can see one ball ahead. And he is kind of aware that he wants the white ball to end up in a good spot. But most of the time he fires a shot - and I do mean fire - and doesn’t think a ton about where the cue ball will end up.

I was the same way as a kid. I learned some positional awareness, to be sure, but not much.

Ironically, I became a really good shotmaker as a young-un because I had to be. The cue ball was often in bad spots!

I learned a lot the past two years, though.

I’ve watched hundreds of hours of video from DrCue, Sharivari, Tor Lowry, FXbilliards, Neils Feijin, Lil Chris and, of course, DrDave (and AZB stalwart Bob Jewett).

They’ve almost become like old friends. (-:

What I have found has surprised me, however.

Most regulars at my pool hall are better and more experienced than me. But in most cases, my technical knowledge or grasp of the fundamentals of the game now exceeds all of them. And often by a big margin.

You can see that these players have a lot of strong elements to their game, but they also have gaping holes. So very few break and run, certainly not regularly.

One good player I know, for instance, refuses to learn the diamond system. Claims tables are too variable.

He banks OK, but I know all the diamond systems. I hit 80% of my banks now and rising. And yet he still hasn’t shown an interest in learning.

Here is the good thing, thorough. Most players have a hunger to learn more. They just don’t know where to look.

Some newbies have watched me, for instance, and asked me to teach them!

Why? They hear me consistently explain things to other players in a way that they haven’t heard before.

Even some of the more experienced players are asking me stuff now. I am beating them more regularly and they are seeing me do stuff they never thought to do. I often point them to the various teachers online that I have learned from.

The unfortunate thing is, most are unaware just how much information about the game is on the web now. Not just instruction, but live or historical matches. I'd guess a lot less than half know who Shane Van Boening is. Ask them to name a player and Mosconi or Minnesota Fats would be the names they mention. Maybe Mizerak.

Most people still learn by just playing, watching other players, or getting the occasional tip. Hardly any watch pros play, especially since pool has disappeared from mainstream television.

The result is, very few have complete games.

This general lack of awareness is not something I see among, say, devout football fans. They read the guys who break down games and can tell you all kinds of stuff about stunts and blitzes and safety coverage and so on.

Pool, on the other hand, is more like a dark art whose knowledge is disseminated sparingly and incompletely.

Just like me three years ago, most players simply don’t know what they don’t know.

I am not sure how, or if, that changes.

The international outlook for pool arguably has never been better, but its position in the U.S. is more tenuous.
 

Justaneng

Registered
My path overall is similar to yours I guess? I played as a HS hobby in the mid 90’s at pool halls that would allow the under 18 kids in. I was taught a few things, but when I look back it was slightly less shitty SL-3’s telling me what to do.

I then didn’t really play in my Navy days, getting laid weighed way more heavily on my mind. After the Navy I went to college and was asked to join a TAP league after shooting around with some friends sophomore year. So I did that from ‘05-‘07. Here’s the rub: I graded out as a TAP/APA-4 and the other players on my team were all 3’s and 2’s. We were by all accounts the blind leading the blind. I was the default coach and I had absolutely no clue what I was doing.

I then put down a cue and didn’t pick it up until I started traveling for work very heavily in 2019. But by that point, similar to you, I started to really get into it and learn with the vast plethora of resources that were now out there. I am significantly better now than I ever have been, rating wise being an APA-6/Fargo-450, with the caveat that I lead my current USAPL division in break and runs.

Overall I’m a hair more optimistic than you in American interest in pool, at least as far as the 18+ crowd goes. But I’m not sure we can find the savant level 12 year olds and develop them properly.

One story from this week I find interesting: I played some racks at a pool hall in Antwerp (here for work). A couple of British teens were playing on the table next to me. Normally I don’t pay much attention, but since the background language is actually Dutch/Flemish the fact that they’re speaking English really stands out. Turns out they’ve only ever played the 8-ball pool APP and this was their first time playing pool in real life.

They eventually ask me for some pointers, and it was a bit interesting that they were learning in reverse a bit. The APP is ok for learning natural angles, however there is no consequence for being jacked up over a ball or a rail. As a result their thought process was ok, but most importantly their bridge and form were trash. So we spent the next hour discussing that.

This brought be full circle back to 1995, when some player who was only slightly better than me was teaching me to power draw when I gripping the cue way too tight with a shitty bridge.
 

MitchAlsup

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My story is somewhat similar::

In my teen age years we had a bar box at the slot car shop, and I played regularly.
My dad bought a pool table (Saunter Wilhelm 8 footer) when I was a sophomore in high school, so I played 3+ hours a day for 3 years, then on to college where I played 3+ hours per day with some good tutelage from some Frat House members. At the peak of my game I had a legitimate 54 ball run 14.1 continuous on the frat house table.

Then, I did not play for about 35 years as career never landed me in easy distance of a table.

In 2006 I moved to an area with a bar in walking distance. It took 3-odd years to bring my game up to the point where I was consistent, so I bought some sticks, and continued my journey. A year later my mother decided the pool table at her house was to stay, and since I was the named recipient on her death, she gave me money to buy my own table, which I did. The I regularly practiced for 1.5 hours a day rebuilding the fundamentals.

What "got me" was that I was so much more aware at 65 yo about how the physics of balls rolling around on the table transpired than I was when fresh out of an engineering degree at Carnegie Mellon at 26 yo. There are still some shots I could make while in the Frat house {like force follow to a ball in the corner pocket and bouncing the CB off the end rail 3 times to get a second ball in the other corner pocket}

I routinely make 3 and 5-rail kick shots, break and run an 8-ball rack on the local bar table 12% of the time, and spend much of my time trying to explain the finer points of the game to newbies. I figure if I bring them up to my level that I will have more people to play and better games to boot.
 

JPB2

Well-known member
Most/many people in most/ many fields don’t avail themselves of information that is out there. Technique, history, whatever. It is what they do and how to go about it. Not sure why.
 

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hmmm. This is interesting but it honestly reads like the thoughts of an average APA player. Most people in a pool room don't concern themselves with all of the things you've mentioned because -- they just don't care that much, or they just aren't that good. It's not because they are unenlightened and just need unsolicited pool coaching. They understand YouTube exists. They just don't care to learn much about pool. Accepting this is sort of important if you want to enjoy your time in a pool room, especially one filled with bangers who are just there to have fun.
 

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think we overthink this often. I played basketball for years with some guys who for the most part weren't very good. I never once thought to myself, these guys need some instruction or need to start watching YouTube videos on free throw shooting. They just enjoyed playing. We tend to take poor pool playing personally for some reason. :)
 

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Last thing...I'm one of the better local players and I'm pretty approachable I think. In my 10-15 years of living here, I've only been asked once if I did instruction, and I've only been asked a couple other times about particular shots. I think 90 percent or more of people that play pool are just doing it for the social aspect. Maybe that number is high but us here on AZ are a super minority within a minority so we often have a skewed vision of what pool is.
 

jbart65

Active member
Well, maybe I am an average APA player. Maybe not even that. Not that I care ...

In any case, I don't take personally anyone who plays poor pool. Matters not to me. I enjoy the game for its own sake. Perfectly happy to play by myself.

Nor do I offer unsolicited instruction. It's someone asking me for advice, which I frankly find astonishing given my long absence from the game! I am not going around proselytizing, if you will.

Some of what you say I agree with. I get it. Take my friend Joe. He wants to learn more. But I know he doesn't want to put the time or thought into the game that I do. So I only give occasional advice when we play. If he asks, I offer more.

On the other hand, I have found that most of the players in my particular pool hall actually do want to get better and learn more. To varying degrees. Again, I don't offer unsolicited advice. I just give it if asked.

My pool hall might be unusual. Just five 9-foot GC tables, but it's a pool hall. Not the place heavily frequented by casual players.

Why don't the regulars learn more on their own? I have no idea. Yes, they are aware of Youtube, but they don't seek it out. Busy lives, I guess.

What I know for sure is that once players at my pool hall learn something, there is a desire to learn more. But it's a pretty small community.

At any rate, I didn't post my original thoughts as a lament, call to arms, or anything of that sort.

I went thru a time warp of sorts and discovered that ... pool is much like it was when I was a kid. I expect it to remain much the same.
 

jbart65

Active member
Finding that the game seems like it was when I was a kid, mind you, wouldn't come as any surprise to me except for a few things.

For one, I am amazed at the explosion of interest around the whole world. While it's frozen in place here, it's gotten so much more popular elsewhere.

And two, there are still several million pool tables in U.S. homes, base on various estimates I have seen. And I have seen some numbers suggesting 10 million to 20 million people in the U.S. play at least once a month.

Credible? I don't know. But Facebook has tons of used tables on sale and most of them get bought.

I tend to think it's guys who think they want a table. Then they get one and lose interest quickly because they don't learn much about the game. So the table gets sold when the wife says the space is being wasted. Or when she divorces her husband!
 

jbart65

Active member
"I know all the diamond systems. I hit 80% of my banks now and rising."

I'm sorry, but this is where I tuned out. You'd be winning every bank pool tournament in the world.
Rough crowd at AZB. One guy accuses me of being Rollie Williams. Another says I am really Pinocchio!

Sorry you tuned out easy-e. Or maybe not!

Since I live in the nation's capitol, let me amend and restate my remarks, as our great legislators are wont to do.

I played at my pool hall last Saturday for several hours. I only took five bank shots in that time. I made four of them.

Three were relatively easy cross-side banks. I knew I would hit them. One was an iffier side to corner bank that I slow rolled in. The fifth shot I messed up badly.

Small sample size, I know. But there you have it.

I shot 45 banks the other day. Three racks of 15. I hit 14, 12, and 13. So that's 39 of 45.

Again, small sample size.

Most of these banks were fairly easy cross side or cross corner banks. Dead banks or just slightly in or out of the natural path.

I watched some bank pool from the Derby last week. Based on what I saw, I would hit fewer than 50% or prolly a lot less of what I saw players attempt. The degree of difficulty was much harder.

I keep it simple. I now practice banking 20 minutes a day. I've spent a lot of time watching all of DrDave's videos on banking. Tory Lowry has two terrific tutorials. And Neils Feijin has a good vid on banking.

When I first started learning how to bank accurately, I practiced an hour a day or more for several weeks. Why? It gives me an edge against the better players at my pool hall. Most are just so-so at banking.

Until my whole game improves, I need every advantage I can get. Simple bank shots are mostly math and some knowledge of English. I don't take many.

I imagine my percentage would drop the more I take banks. Or if I take harder ones. When I do miss a bank, I sticker it up at home and practice it until I can hit it at least five times in a row.

I don't think my nose grew any longer in the time it took me to write this. But I haven't looked in the mirror. 🤥
 
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boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
One good player I know, for instance, refuses to learn the diamond system. Claims tables are too variable.

He banks OK, but I know all the diamond systems. I hit 80% of my banks now and rising. And yet he still hasn’t shown an interest in learning.
The thing is you still have to adjust/adapt to EVERY table with the systems. Tables can play differently depending on what time of day it is. Every table plays different.

The systems are good and correct but if you have a basic understanding you really don't need a system. I'd rather just look at it tbh and usually it works great. It took effort and observation but my banks and especially kicks are on par with players 200 fargo points higher than me. Doing math (even dead easy) of systems isn't fun. Looking at the shot and executing it perfectly is fun. It's not rocket science and it's a case of different strokes for different folks.

If you want a system to work, you must practice it to proficiency and also be able to adapt it.

If you want to simply look at the shot and do it you must practice to proficiency and you don't have to piss with mathematics.

:)
 

jbart65

Active member
The thing is you still have to adjust/adapt to EVERY table with the systems. Tables can play differently depending on what time of day it is. Every table plays different.

The systems are good and correct but if you have a basic understanding you really don't need a system. I'd rather just look at it tbh and usually it works great. It took effort and observation but my banks and especially kicks are on par with players 200 fargo points higher than me. Doing math (even dead easy) of systems isn't fun. Looking at the shot and executing it perfectly is fun. It's not rocket science and it's a case of different strokes for different folks.

If you want a system to work, you must practice it to proficiency and also be able to adapt it.

If you want to simply look at the shot and do it you must practice to proficiency and you don't have to piss with mathematics.

:)
Sure, every table plays different, but most good tables I’ve played on don’t require much adjustment for simpler banks. (Kick shots are another matter.)

i know math isn’t fun or easy for some. it is for me. Only takes me a few seconds to do it. Learning diamond systems gave me a foundation and allowed me to dial in my banking. That, and learning which and how much English to use on banks. And what speed.

Now, I shoot at least one rack a day of banks in which I don’t use any math. Just to measure my progress in innately being able to figure out how to pot them.

Even if I develop a natural affinity for banks, as I expect, I still think it is very useful to know the systems to occasionally check my work. I see some pros do the same thing from time to time.

Knowledge is power. Right now I need the assistance of systems until I get thousands of more shots under my belt!
 

trob

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"I know all the diamond systems. I hit 80% of my banks now and rising."

I'm sorry, but this is where I tuned out. You'd be winning every bank pool tournament in the world.
same.. lol
 

tomatoshooter

Well-known member
Not necessarily, he could only be attempting the ones he’s 80% on.
That's true, especially with banks. I don't think I'm 80% but I do okay in game situations. Then I throw 15 balls on the table to practice banking and there isn't a single bank available.

On a related note, I was playing at the pool hall the other day and was surprised at how much I could stiffen the banks on that table. Some banks were possible that normally wouldn't be, but I also had to be more careful about how I hit them. I'd say the table was more sensitive.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Last thing...I'm one of the better local players and I'm pretty approachable I think. In my 10-15 years of living here, I've only been asked once if I did instruction, and I've only been asked a couple other times about particular shots. I think 90 percent or more of people that play pool are just doing it for the social aspect. Maybe that number is high but us here on AZ are a super minority within a minority so we often have a skewed vision of what pool is.
A lot of macho bs 'i don't need any help' in pool. i've tried to help a few at local hall and while some are cool with it its surprising how many players(guys anyway) get all passive-aggressive when it comes to pool. Some of these cats are fkng HORRIBLE but any attempt at help just puts then in defense mode. Most JoeBanger players have NO clue how to play but are convinced they can. Weird.
 

jbart65

Active member
A lot of macho bs 'i don't need any help' in pool. i've tried to help a few at local hall and while some are cool with it its surprising how many players(guys anyway) get all passive-aggressive when it comes to pool. Some of these cats are fkng HORRIBLE but any attempt at help just puts then in defense mode. Most JoeBanger players have NO clue how to play but are convinced they can. Weird.
Being a relative newbie to the world of pool again after a long absence, I am somewhat surprised by how little even really good players at my pool hall know. Technical knowledge, that is.

Some of them know a lot, mind you. But they can't verbalize it well. It's knowledge they have built up over years of playing. I sometimes ask the better players, why did you shoot it that way? Or what spin did you use? They often can't tell me why or have to think about it.

Almost all of them have obvious gaps in their games that I can spot after having spent so much time studying and re-learning how to play pool. I can't shoot as consistently as they can - not yet - but I am gaining on them as I learn better position play and all the other fundamentals.

Several of the regulars have noticed how well I bank. I can tell they are thinking to themselves, how can this just-OK player bank like that (uh, lots of practice). I told one I use diamond systems. He said, "you know, I never learned them. I probably should."

All that said, I see tens of thousands and sometimes millions of views for videos by Sharivari, DrDave and others. Clearly lots of people are on Youtube learning.

I just don't run into a lot of them at my pool hall!
 
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