USEFUL SPEED REFERENCE for Judging Straight-Back-Bank CB Control and for Measuring a Table

Since this is a hard concept to understand, let me try to get there by a slightly different path....

You are playing one pocket. You have long bank straight back to your pocket. The cue ball is near the foot rail. You want to play it just hard enough to leave the object ball in the jaws if you miss. Also, you want to freeze the cue ball on the far cushion for the safety, limiting your opponent's possibilities.

Let's suppose the object ball is even with the foot spot. Can you shoot the object ball at the required speed and also freeze the cue ball to the far cushion for a safety? No. It's impossible. The cue ball cannot roll that far for that speed of the object ball. (An exception would be if the far cushion is horribly dead, but let's stick with normal rails.)

Let's suppose the object ball is a diamond from the head rail. Can you get both speeds right with a rolling cue ball? No. It's impossible. The cue ball is guaranteed to bounce off the head rail if you have enough speed on the object ball to get to your pocket. (You might be able to do this shot with a "stun run-through" (partial follow, not rolling smoothly), but that's going to be very, very difficult to control over that 6+ diamond distance.)

For one case, you have not enough speed on the cue ball and for the other case you have too much speed on the cue ball. Somewhere between those two cases, when the object ball is roughly even with the side pockets, it's not only possible, but if you have the intended speed on the object ball, you are guaranteed to have the correct speed on the cue ball.
 
straightline said:
That's with natural roll. You also have the full range of stun to work with.
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That's only true for some distances between CB and OB. The point is that there is a situation where getting the speed right is all you have to do. The cue ball wants to roll.
 
watching steven hendry’s stroke
i can measure where the cueball will finish
by the distance his tip finishes from his bridge hand

i’m not sure if that makes sense but
he was very accurate and measured
 
7stud said:
I was able to determine a reference line when I tried it. The reference line does not determine where the CB will end up, rather the reference line tells you that if you have the touch to make the CB end up nestled against the end rail and the OB started on the reference line, then the OB will just trickle into the pocket or hang on the edge of the pocket.
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This may be _your_ reference line, that works for you on _that_ day, with the particular stroke speed and tip position you are using in that moment. But that reference line is is probably not going to be the same for everyone else because all of those things are different for them. It certainly isn't going to be a different reference line because of the _type of pool table_, as if it will be different because you are shoting on a diamond rather than an Olhausen.

I understand the concept, what he is trying to get across. I just think it should be taught differently, because this just doesn't work for me. Maybe I'm just dense.
 
it does work and gives most a great reference on things. this is something few have ever thought about. hats off to dave for that.

however, it might only apply in one pocket when only one ball is left on the table. or you need only one and there are balls left where if he makes it and follows it in you get a shot to win. as you dont want to make the ball and leave yourself on the rail.

and most times long rail banks need to be hit harder to play position for the next shot, or to leave opponent in a specific spot. and they are easier to make hitting more firmly.
as hanging a ball in your pocket seems great, but usually just gives your opponent an easy shot by making your ball and easy position to hook you.

the real valuable time to have a ball hanging is when you can hook him where he cant get to it and doesn't have a make able shot.
 
maha said:
however, it might only apply in one pocket when only one ball is left on the table. or you need only one and there are balls left where if he makes it and follows it in you get a shot to win. as you dont want to make the ball and leave yourself on the rail.
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These types of references are certainly useful in any discipline. For example in rotation game safeties, you often want to leave both the CB and OB in a certain zone. The odds of the exact reference shot coming up in a real match is almost 0%, but using a reference as a baseline (e.g. ratio between CB and OB travel distance with rolling CB and full hit) that you extrapolate useful information from (e.g. you need a 5 degree cut instead of 0 degrees that you memorized) is where the usefulness lies. e.g. rolling the CB behind another ball with BIH to make a lock-up safety.

Also, your intuitive judgement for such shots greatly benefits from knowing references and understanding the physics better. Even if the end-result of executing those shots with or without ever learning the references might feel the same after enough reps (100% intuition), your brain gets valuable knowledge ingrained from learning/using the references that the intuition will then utilize even when not consciously using the references anymore.

To put it simply, having a collection of references gives you a more in-depth understanding for all kinds of shots (in rotation games especially for safeties), even if those memorized references never come up in their original form.
 
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I suppose the ratio line stuff has value but you really lost me from the start. Why the hell would I shoot to make a ball and leave myself on the top rail??

In general I find your videos a bit long. This one is a bit short especially since it is mostly ad. I think a video to teach a single concept should probably be between four and seven minutes actual teaching time.

I was still scratching my head over your basic flawed concept and never did get around to giving your ratio line much thought. I set the cue ball on the headstring, an object ball at center table, and shoot a few straight back banks. Same shot any table I get on and it tells me all I want to know about how it banks and bank speed.

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
I suppose the ratio line stuff has value but you really lost me from the start. Why the hell would I shoot to make a ball and leave myself on the top rail??
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If you are playing one-pocket and you might miss, it can be helpful to leave the OB as a hanger in your pocket and leave the CB frozen to the head rail.

Also, finding the reference line on a particular table is a good speed control drill.

Also, knowing the reference line can help you judge shots where the OB is in other positions in front or behind the line, for example when playing safeties in any games.

Also, the line location can give you a measure of the bounciness of a table’s cushions for comparison to other tables.
 
ShootingArts said:
I suppose the ratio line stuff has value but you really lost me from the start. Why the hell would I shoot to make a ball and leave myself on the top rail??



Hu
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Hu i am confident you have played last pocket 8ball where this might come in handy lagging the 8 at your hole.
Hell you have hustled enough that you probably have intentionally dogged balls like this for many years😀
 
Badpenguin said:
This may be _your_ reference line, that works for you on _that_ day, with the particular stroke speed and tip position you are using in that moment.
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You have a wide latitude on tip position. For instance, if the CB is 3 diamonds away from the OB, you can use a tip position that is at the miscue limit (50% of the radius), or you can use a tip position that gives you "instant roll" (40% of the radius), or you can use a tip position that is slightly above center ball. For that shot, any tip position between the miscue limit and slightly above center ball will result in a rolling CB when the CB hits the OB. I don't know why you are so hung up on the tip position.

Stroke speed depends on how far the CB is from the OB, and just because you need different stroke speeds depending on the shot doesn't mean the reference line doesn't work. For instance, if you tell another player where the reference line is on a table, and they hit the bank so that the CB ends up on the end rail, then the OB will either just trickle into the pocket or end up hanging on the edge of the pocket.

Badpenguin said:
But that reference line is is probably not going to be the same for everyone else because all of those things are different for them.
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Stroke speed and the range where the tip position can hit the CB will be the same for any player that steps up to the table on which the reference line was determined. Yes, different players will have jab strokes, side arm strokes, pendulum strokes, or piston strokes--all of which are irrelevant. In a blind test, on the same table, if Josh Filler, Nels Feijen, Keith McCready, and I perform the test, and we all use a different distance between the CB and OB, and we all use a different tip position where we strike the CB, we should still all come up with the same reference line within 0.1 diamonds of each other.

Badpenguin said:
I understand the concept, what he is trying to get across. I just think it should be taught differently, because this just doesn't work for me. Maybe I'm just dense.
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If you understand the concept, but you reject it, that is on you. Players find some concepts useful and other concepts impractical. I've performed the test, and I've found the reference line on one table, so now the concept is in my bag of tricks. Will I ever use it? I don't know, but I will be looking to apply it.
 
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7stud said:
You have a wide latitude on tip position. For instance, if the CB is 3 diamonds away from the OB, you can use a tip position that is at the miscue limit (50% of the radius), or you can use a tip position that gives you "instant roll" (40% of the radius), or you can use a tip position that is slightly above center ball. For that shot, any tip position between the miscue limit and slightly above center ball will result in a rolling CB when the CB hits the OB. I don't know why you are so hung up on the tip position.

Stroke speed depends on how far the CB is from the OB, and just because you need different stroke speeds depending on the shot doesn't mean the reference line doesn't work. For instance, if you tell another player where the reference line is on a table, and they hit the bank so that the CB ends up on the end rail, then the OB will either just trickle into the pocket or end up hanging on the edge of the pocket.


Stroke speed and the range where the tip position can hit the CB will be the same for any player that steps up to the table on which the reference line was determined. Yes, different players will have jab strokes, side arm strokes, pendulum strokes, or piston strokes--all of which are irrelevant. In a blind test, on the same table, if Josh Filler, Nels Feijen, Keith McCready, and I perform the test, and we all use a different distance between the CB and OB, and we all use a different tip position where we strike the CB, we will still all come up with the same reference line within 0.1 diamonds of each other.


If you understand the concept, but you reject it, that is on you. Players find some concepts useful and other concepts impractical. I've performed the test, and I've found the reference line on one table, so now the concept is in my bag of tricks. Will I ever use it? I don't know, but I will be looking to apply it.
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Thank you for your well-written posts in this thread. They have been helpful.
 
alphadog said:
Hu i am confident you have played last pocket 8ball where this might come in handy lagging the 8 at your hole.
Hell you have hustled enough that you probably have intentionally dogged balls like this for many years😀
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Me intentionally dog a shot? I am hurt you could say such a thing!(grin)

True enough, I have "accidentally" safed myself a lot more times than "accidentally" making a ball. I gambled wherever I found gamblers. Unfortunately that probably meant seven footers rather than nines or tens, at least a three to one ratio at a guess. I would have played nothing but ten footers and snooker tables given a choice but I would have starved to death without bar table action.

There are a few unique circumstances where I might safe myself. Did it countless times hustling for a fact. However, as a general statement it makes no sense to safe yourself unless this was your last ball. Dave suggests this is one pocket and as a one pocket shot it is one and done. Normally a two way shot is played, good for you and bad for your opponent, or you fully commit to the shot. This perfect angle bank I am shooting it a little harder to make sure some quirk of the table doesn't deflect the ball. Maybe a bit of Johnny Archer's lint!

Not too sure this is a good speed test for the table because hitting a rail at that angle is going to give close to a 40% reduction in ball speed coming off the rail, essentially two tries at getting speed right to stay close to the rail and a bit of a crutch. The cue ball part of the shot is a lot like lagging for a break and we see the pro's often a diamond or more from the rail when they lag. Sometimes very close but often not.

I find the value of this shot as a one pocket shot very questionable and don't see any special value as a calibration shot. My kitchen to centerline shot serves the same purposes and I can use the same shot on every table. I did try to find a benefit to finding his ratio line but I think it extremely unlikely to have an advantage over any other warm-up a person likes.

As a calibration shot I think it would be more effective to move the balls over and either put a piece of chalk on the foot rail for a target or use the first diamond on the foot rail for a target. Now, how far is the cue ball from the head rail and the object ball from the foot rail? Did the balls hit the rail and bounce off of it or did they stop short of the rail?

When you can stop both balls within a ball or two of the rail three times out of five or seven out of ten then you will know something. I'm not sure of the value, but you will know the ratio line as long as you keep a handful of variables the same..

Hu
 
7stud said:
You have a wide latitude on tip position. For instance, if the CB is 3 diamonds away from the OB, you can use a tip position that is at the miscue limit (50% of the radius), or you can use a tip position that gives you "instant roll" (40% of the radius), or you can use a tip position that is slightly above center ball. For that shot, any tip position between the miscue limit and slightly above center ball will result in a rolling CB when the CB hits the OB. I don't know why you are so hung up on the tip position.

Stroke speed depends on how far the CB is from the OB, and just because you need different stroke speeds depending on the shot doesn't mean the reference line doesn't work. For instance, if you tell another player where the reference line is on a table, and they hit the bank so that the CB ends up on the end rail, then the OB will either just trickle into the pocket or end up hanging on the edge of the pocket.


Stroke speed and the range where the tip position can hit the CB will be the same for any player that steps up to the table on which the reference line was determined. Yes, different players will have jab strokes, side arm strokes, pendulum strokes, or piston strokes--all of which are irrelevant. In a blind test, on the same table, if Josh Filler, Nels Feijen, Keith McCready, and I perform the test, and we all use a different distance between the CB and OB, and we all use a different tip position where we strike the CB, we should still all come up with the same reference line within 0.1 diamonds of each other.


If you understand the concept, but you reject it, that is on you. Players find some concepts useful and other concepts impractical. I've performed the test, and I've found the reference line on one table, so now the concept is in my bag of tricks. Will I ever use it? I don't know, but I will be looking to apply it.
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Ok, you try getting the cue ball to the head of the table with your tip position applying draw. Or even center ball but stroking the hell out of it so it becomes a stop shot. Obviously some line across the table slightly below the side pockets isn't going to work for any shooter, much less all shooters, as you are saying.
 
Couple things about that; at the gambit end of the game (coolese - sorry) when am many balls on table, you will often take the long banks if there's good or even easy cover. Even if the ball goes it's simple enough to have anticipated a second strategic fix - far end or not.
 
Badpenguin said:
Ok, you try getting the cue ball to the head of the table with your tip position applying draw. Or even center ball but stroking the hell out of it so it becomes a stop shot. Obviously some line across the table slightly below the side pockets isn't going to work for any shooter, much less all shooters, as you are saying.
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The reference line will be the same for all players on a given table--if they perform the test as described. Stop shots and draw shots do not meet the requirements of the test. Do you understand what a fully rolling CB is? Is the CB fully rolling into the OB when you hit a stop shot? Is the CB fully rolling into the OB when you hit a draw shot?
 
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