GENDER IN POOL ... Do Men Play Better Than Women? ... Recent Legal Trial

It's so easy to label all this obfuscation as absurd.....
Have you ever heard of a biological female transing to a man and successfully competing with men at any legitimate level? At any sport?
I can't think of a single case
It's ALL garbage, these dudes are desperate for recognition at the expense of women and it's really that simple. Shame on them.
 
I just can't help but wonder. Is comparing the on-the-table difference between top men and top women a gender thing or a skill difference thing?
It's both. Dr Dave's reasons explain why a woman's ceiling for skills may be more limited than that of a man, but there is much more to the equation than that.
I would assume shot conceptualization and decision making between a male 500 and female 500 to be about the same. And between 600 and 600.
Not a good assumption. Even at this level, based on my observation over the years, women are less logical at the table than the men. The women that get to this level make up for having a weaker break and poorer decision-making skills by shooting straighter than their male counterparts. It's one of the many reasons that there are just 45 American females carrying a Fargo of 600+ while there are probably a few thousand American males carrying a Fargo 600+. Yes, it seems that 99% of America's Fargo 600+ Fargo players are men, and based on participation levels alone, it should not be that way.

So when we're comparing top men to top women you're comparing 830 men to a pool of 760-790 women and those on-the-table differences are astute observations but also expected.
No, we are not. What I am saying that if a man and a woman have exactly the same skills in all areas of shot execution skills, the man, on average, will be the stronger player because he is inherently more logical in his shot conceptualization at the table.

There is a gender-based difference in both prioritization of and speed of comprehension when it comes to the conceptualization skills that are needed to reach the highest levels of play. We all agree that it is hard to quantify.
 
Very interesting article and discussions here.
Where I live it is interesting that of the top 4 or 5 female players( in a few million catchment area), most are lesbian and I don’t t know how else to say it but of the butcher variety - please accept my apologies if I offend- I don’t intend to
How does this fit into these arguments I wonder?
Maybe they are inherently in their dna make up more male eg testosterone etc Or is it the fact they are maybe slightly stronger physically?

I have no idea as on the world scene the top female players are not particularly physically large

Just an observation!
 
I just can't help but wonder. Is comparing the on-the-table difference between top men and top women a gender thing or a skill difference thing?

I would assume shot conceptualization and decision making between a male 500 and female 500 to be about the same. And between 600 and 600. 700 and 700. But it happens no 830 level women have emerged to compare against 830 level men. So when we're comparing top men to top women you're comparing 830 men to a pool of 760-790 women and those on-the-table differences are astute observations but also expected.

It just makes you wonder if something is making them lack that key component to an elite game because their gender hinders their ability to do so or if it's really just a matter that a generational talent at that most elite level hasn't emerged from their population. Kinda feels like a chicken-egg situation that leaves the big questions unanswered.

Excellent post.

If we could get a lot more women playing, and if the societal factors magically disappeared, maybe we could have better data and answers after many generations into the future.
 
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It would take a super alpha female to beat a male and she would have to have a masculine personality which is all American women these days.

Those gold digging stripper type women with some alpha personality. They don't care for traditional female roles and will hustle money out of men if given the chance. Rolex on the dresser? Well, its gone the next morning.

I've played a woman like this in my early 20's and she normally hung out at the casino, night clubs or pool halls and would gamble with the men. She was a good player and knew she had the looks too. She was a regular at all the pool halls in town. Drove a Mercedes at the time. Anyways, she would go up to men and demand to play $100 a set. She would question our manhood if we didn't play.

Think Jeanette Lee but a ghetto version. LOL
 
Women tend to be shorter, so they don’t quite see the ‘bird’s-eye-view’ of the table layout that taller men see. As a result, they also must play with a bridge or extension more than the taller men. Large breasted women often have trouble with the ‘pendulum’ stroke, though that never inhibited side-arm players like Keith or Greenleaf. The largest handicap though, is not growing up hanging out in poolrooms, from early childhood. Only the seediest rooms would ever let us little male kids in to play, and little girls… NEVER!
 
Women tend to be shorter, so they don’t quite see the ‘bird’s-eye-view’ of the table layout that taller men see. As a result, they also must play with a bridge or extension more than the taller men.
An interesting proposition, but it's hard to accept the height argument when Alex Pagulayan and Nick Varner are, arguably, two of the three best in conceptualization and decision-making skills of all time, (along with Efren). Both were among the shortest players in the game when they competed, and yes, they used a bridge more often than some others. The very short Pagulayan, it should be noted, has had great success on the 10-footer, too.
 
Women tend to be shorter, so they don’t quite see the ‘bird’s-eye-view’ of the table layout that taller men see. As a result, they also must play with a bridge or extension more than the taller men. Large breasted women often have trouble with the ‘pendulum’ stroke, though that never inhibited side-arm players like Keith or Greenleaf. The largest handicap though, is not growing up hanging out in poolrooms, from early childhood. Only the seediest rooms would ever let us little male kids in to play, and little girls… NEVER!
Granted, some physical limitations but also Varner, Layan, Shorty, and those are only the famous ones I can think of.
The psychological limits though, are ingrained into the human condition. Compound that with the mythical glass ceiling and the powers that be - not gonna happen in any meaningful way.
 
Height isn't an issue since I believe shorter people have the advantage on a pool table. The best players at my pool hall are mostly short. It's easier for them to shoot since they don't have to bend down as far. They can lower field of vision just by merely spreading their legs more.
 
An interesting proposition, but it's hard to accept the height argument when Alex Pagulayan and Nick Varner are, arguably, two of the three best in conceptualization and decision-making skills of all time, (along with Efren). Both were among the shortest players in the game when they competed, and yes, they used a bridge more often than some others. The very short Pagulayan, it should be noted, has had great success on the 10-footer, too.
There maybe a few of us Northerners, that consider Alex a pretty sporty navigator of a twelve footer :-) Cheers!
 
It's both. Dr Dave's reasons explain why a woman's ceiling for skills may be more limited than that of a man, but there is much more to the equation than that.

Not a good assumption. Even at this level, based on my observation over the years, women are less logical at the table than the men. The women that get to this level make up for having a weaker break and poorer decision-making skills by shooting straighter than their male counterparts. It's one of the many reasons that there are just 45 American females carrying a Fargo of 600+ while there are probably a few thousand American males carrying a Fargo 600+. Yes, it seems that 99% of America's Fargo 600+ Fargo players are men, and based on participation levels alone, it should not be that way.


No, we are not. What I am saying that if a man and a woman have exactly the same skills in all areas of shot execution skills, the man, on average, will be the stronger player because he is inherently more logical in his shot conceptualization at the table.

There is a gender-based difference in both prioritization of and speed of comprehension when it comes to the conceptualization skills that are needed to reach the highest levels of play. We all agree that it is hard to quantify.

Appreciate the response. Just wanted to be clear on what you were presenting. You said as much already but the short version is if your have a 750 man and 750 woman and FargoRate is true that they could battle until the end of time and come out even, the man would be expected to have better shot conceptualization and decision making than the woman and the only reason that’s not enough outmatch her is because she has other skills, like superior fundamentals and shotmaking, than him to be the factor that draws them level.
 
Appreciate the response. Just wanted to be clear on what you were presenting. You said as much already but the short version is if your have a 750 man and 750 woman and FargoRate is true that they could battle until the end of time and come out even, the man would be expected to have better shot conceptualization and decision making than the woman and the only reason that’s not enough outmatch her is because she has other skills, like superior fundamentals and shotmaking, than him to be the factor that draws them level.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. Hope you're well, Matt.
 
This is a nice, well-reasoned and well-presented article, but I have one complaint.

The implication is that the difference between the male player and the female player boils down almost entirely to physical attributes and gender-related physical differences, and much of it does.

I have probably attended 100 WPBA events live over the past 50 years and probably over 200 major men's events. I have seen every female BCA Hall of Famer play live other than Ruth McGinnis and I have played pool against more than half of them, too. As somebody who has been around both men's and women's pro pool since 1976, I feel an enormous difference between women's and men's pro pool has been largely overlooked in the article and that is the difference in general shot conceptualization and decision making.

I believe that in pro pool, the gap in conceptualization and decision making between men and women is as great as the gap in shot execution. The decisions made by women in pattern play, defense, and all tactical areas are miles and miles and more miles below those of the men, and for that reason, I still do not believe that if they had exactly the same abilities as men to execute shots, women would play as well as men.

Hence, while all the noted differences between men and women noted in the article are valid, it falls well short of explaining the difference between the top men and the top women.

Maybe it is politically incorrect to say that women are much less logical in their conceptualization and decision-making skills than men at the pool table, but my roughly 50 years of live observation say it is so, and it is a huge part of the story if women are to be compared with men.
I'm a putzy league player, but at this level such distinction you mention is also obvious. Even among lower skilled men it is apparent. I regularly beat players who have good shot making skills which are better than mine, but invariably at some point they will make a shot selection that leads to a early end to their run.
 
Yet ANOTHER great article by Dr. Dave. Thank you for giving all of us a different lens to look through, and the perspective.

Well, first, in no way shape or form am I trying to insult anyone who chooses to alter their body to become someone or something else. Everyone (except juveniles) reserves the right to do so and be happy, and hopefully they are.

But, (there's always a but), since the general dark culture of today is now leaning towards the trend whereas anyone can identify as any kind of person, gender or thing, I want to announce that effective today, I will now identify as a Zebra. A female Zebra. I'm tired of being “just a virile man with a bag of pool cues” and I have always felt the calling of the Savannah down in southern Africa all though my younger years. In fact, I am going to the dermatologist tomorrow for my stripes, the sports doctor for 2 more legs - with hooves, the team of doctors and surgeons for hormone therapy and other injections, and the plastic surgeon later in the week for my new tail and fabulous genitals. The conservative right says I am what I am at birth (and to that I agree). As an American citizen, I am free to believe I can be whatever I want to be and I have the God-given right to enjoy dignity and live a peaceful existence, as it should be (to which I also agree). The liberal left wants everyone to not just believe, but to accept that I will now a Zebra. Therein lies the problem, as free people do NOT have to believe nor accept another’s beliefs no matter what society implies or what agenda is pushed. Not to mention, my trans-Zebra procedure will never allow me to menstruate nor naturally bear offspring nor breastfeed milk to any foals nor experience the normal female “situations,” albeit I will have the new female parts. But hey, I’ll still be a female Zebra according to me and my newly-indoctrinated ivory-league friends who believe they know more than the scientists.

The worst part is: I have already contacted the US Open and they said there will be NO events for Zebras this year. So I guess I will just try to enter the women’s event since I will have the new parts and “feel” as though I am at least on the same gender side. I guess this makes me a woman in every way now. Of course, if allowed, I will dominate because of my strength and ability to stand taller and reach mid-table jump-shot areas a little easier. So if you happen to see me just say hello, and please don't confuse me with the ref. But man, I gotta be honest. It’s gonna really piss me off when some snooker-Brit shouts “hey mate, ya gonna take solids or STRIPES?”
 
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I want to announce that effective today, I will now identify as a Zebra. A female Zebra. I'm tired of being “just a virile man with a bag of pool cues” and I have always felt the calling of the Savannah down in southern Africa all though my younger years. In fact, I am going to the dermatologist tomorrow for my stripes, the sports doctor for 2 more legs - with hooves, the team of doctors and surgeons for hormone therapy and other injections, and the plastic surgeon later in the week for my new tail and fabulous genitals.
You go girl! ;)
LadyKraken ❤ Commissions OPEN - Sunset Lars Furry Zebra - CommissionLadyKraken ❤ Commissions OPEN - Sunset Lars Furry Zebra - Commission900 × 696[/ISPOILER]
 
A related mixed competition item that just came up on my feed ...

Reminds me of the women Distance Fly Caster. She won an International competition.
The next year the rules were changed. The casters had to use leaded sinking line.
She didn't have the strength to compete and the point of the rule change.

She laughed it all off in an interview.

Back to the topic.

I think it's simply a numbers thing. (Maybe mentioned before.)

There's way more men competing at these games vs women. The smaller population of women competing at these games distorts the perception.

If there were more women playing, there would be a greater chance of more women standing toe to toe with Top Men Players.

I do think that generally speaking there's less competitive drive with women. At least in sports, and the reason there's less women competing in all sports. Or most anyway.

If there was an equal number of women as men playing Billiard games, I believe there wouldn't be a men vs women skill gap in Professional cue sports.
 
The easy lick with that is more women, more women factions, more advancement options. As it is now, they're mostly at the whim of whatever is in play.
 
Good post Matt.

It would be very interesting to see FargoRate data on transgender pool players, both before and after transitioning, but that data is not available or collected.

It would also be interesting to see how the average of the female distribution has changed in the past and how it might change in the future.
There is a transgender in my city that is an avid player. She is not that good though, about a 415 fargorate. I could see if she was a 600 all the other girls would be quite upset. As it is, no one cares if she plays in open or women's events.

The funny thing to me though is, when I watch her practice, I say to myself she's a biological male, and practices a LOT, and is still quite weak. I don't think I've seen a male put in that many hours into the game and be that weak.
 
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