Myth or real - Stroke smoothness as a requisite for certain shots

The cueball doesn't know how the hit was delivered. Inanimate objects have no knowledge or memory.

What does matter is that humans are meat balloons supported by flexible sticks held together with rubber bands. So when someone says that a stroke has to be performed a certain way, what they are really saying is that they have to perform it that way because of how their body reacts to the forces of the stroke. In other words, you can't put force (i.e. cuestick acceleration) into one part of a flexible system (i.e. the pool player) without that flexible system moving to resolve that force. Therefore, a person needs to compensate somehow to get the reaction needed.

To bring this further, humans are all relatively similar, so what works for one person will likely work to some degree for another. The outliers will have less success learning from the masses (for example, I'm 6'3" 165lbs, what works for someone a foot shorter and 20lbs heavier than me won't work as well for me).

So, there is kind of an absolute truth in what a lot of players claim, but the understanding of why is questionable at best.
 
Well the acronym on the first page has triggered my inner uh Ittle Johnny.
Practice  It So Smooth. Or Fail  Forever. 🤷‍♂️ 😉 Sorry, no offense intended.
 
I was showing a mid 700fr player a 1 pkt shot. He watched me shoot it a couple times- my absolute maximum inside english with a swerve at high speed and he says I can't allow myself to stroke a ball like that. I replied I know it looks bad but I don't have your stroke and that's the way I have always played it. I told him he can execute the shot without looking like a monkey effing a football.

A couple nights later the shot came up and he nailed it smooth as ever.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Some things to think about, but not related to the exact question....

At a Eurotour event they put slo-mo cameras and such on about 20 top players and measured a bunch of things. A major result was that for all of the players shooting standard shots -- not break shots -- the tip hit the ball at near zero acceleration. The cue was, in effect, coasting through the cue ball.

The theory says that this timing will also be the least effort to accomplish the speed/spin required for a shot. I think it is very difficult or impossible to consciously teach this timing and that the players have simply learned the best/easiest way to hit the ball by years of practice.

Also....

Some say that you have to have a certain strength of grip for some shots. It turns out that that human flesh is so much softer than wood, CF, and even the tip, that during the actual tip/ball contact, the hand is not really involved in the collision. This has been demonstrated with high speed video.

In fact, the original Iron Willie design was broken. The grip was very, very firm. So firm that most of the robot arm was added to the weight of the stick. Iron Willie was redesigned to have a properly compliant grip, I've been told.
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They've studied putting strokes and came to exact same conclusion: really good putters 'coast' the clubhead into the ball. The full swing is much the same also, max accel occurs waay before the ball is ever struck.
 
garczar said:
They've studied putting strokes and came to exact same conclusion: really good putters 'coast' the clubhead into the ball. The full swing is much the same also, max accel occurs waay before the ball is ever struck.
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The catch to not trying to accelerate through the cue ball, which I know is impossible with a typical cue, is that the arm has many muscles, not just the major ones we usually consider. If the arm relaxes the muscles will not relax evenly and nobody has perfectly balanced arm musculature anyway. They are all working together nicely while we are trying to accelerate or maintain speed. The moment we let muscles in the arm start to relax we entire the realm of unintended consequences.

Scott Lee was passing through. Never took a lesson but we played around on tables a handful of times and I fed him a meal or three. I forget why, I was shooting a table length very thin cut shot on a nine foot Diamond. I deliberately extended my stroke all the way to the joint when I drilled the shot first try. Scott asked me what that huge follow through did for me. I told him not a thing. It wasn't what it did, it was what it made sure didn't happen. The shot didn't need but maybe ten inches of stroke before hitting the cue ball and an inch after initial contact. Anybody want to attempt it with eleven inches total of cue travel, ten and one as described, I'll bet twenty a try. A nice robot could do it all day long, a human can't. That is the reason for a good transition, a smooth acceleration, and a gentle follow through. This protects us from our human weaknesses.

Hu
 
Yes to all of this.

I think the answer to the question asked was if you can do something like hit the ball above center, and because you used a special smooth slip stroke you can add draw and the ball will spin backwards.

No.

You just ended up hitting the ball below center with whatever you did.

I’ve talked to people who believe the contrary and they reject physics based on false belief and desperation to know something “special”
 
I've heard several things in here that I think people are confused by. It's not about accelerating THROUGH the cueball. It's accelerating to the point of contact. Do you know why letting the weight of the cue do the work works so well? It's because it's impossible to decelerate prior to contact if you're just carrying the cue to the point of contact. If you're not trying to force the cue through the ball, you don't have the means to decelerate without absolutely intending to.

Letting the weight of the cue do the work does more than just that, it makes it harder to deviate off of the intended aimline, to deviate from the intended portion of the cueball you wish to contact, etc.
 
I know from watching bar box players go from sloppy valleys to tight diamonds that the pokey bar box strokes they have rattle a lot of balls once they change over. I had to rebuild my stroke to play on diamonds. Smooth slow back stroke give me a smooth slow forward stroke which give me more accuracy at impact which means more balls go in the hole. I don’t need to analyze it more than that.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
acceleration timed to achieve the target speed at the millisecond of contact.
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That's where the ring finger adds its input. Like snapping the bottle cap. Pow Splat is a favorite sound. Gotta ruminate on the variety of speeds and spin that can be obtained in a baseball pitch. Disguising the pitch, as a big league hitter will massacre the ball if he (or she 😉) know the pitch.
So give 'em the finger. 🤷‍♂️ Everything else is the foundation.
 
Through the ball is the attitude as attack with confidence. Striking the bb in the center of the white rock yields the least speed spin variation so the add and subtraction level is where I prefer to reside. Never said I couldn't spin my rock. I just prefer not to. 🤷‍♂️
I would pronounce it, "my 20 dollar shot" , when executed in the 5 dollar game. Shrug 🤷‍♂️ Those shots kill action.
Okay one last Sunday sermon indulgence. 😉
The Mustard Seed 2 had an regular one and 2 ring game. 5 handed was load limit. As courtesy I was Allowed the 5th spot that had been vacant all morning. 🤷‍♂️ Well first rack I got a shot and got out. Then I broke and ran. All 4 unscrewed. I said excuse, I will resign and you 4 carry on. All Smiles. I had my beer budget for the day and it was early.
 
gregcantrall said:
Striking the bb in the center of the white rock yields the least speed spin variation
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My final focus is on the 13 mm tip and it's path through the 1 mm center ball. That 13 mm target zone has an adequate variation available to make the cue ball talk.
"He command his cueball" was a favorite overheard comment. Oh yeah, that was in a war zone. Something I see being created through Gestapo like activities that are being carried to Murder! How many? Despicable is as Despicable does. Why no Impeachment? Oh my oh my.
 
the longer the length/distance of the period of no acceleration/constant speed of tip, the easier to have the proper speed when you hit your target/object ball.

so acceleration through the stroke is wrong. and taught by most of the non knowledgeable teachers that just regurgitate what they heard in the past.

it is uneven deceleration that is catastrophic near the cueball that you cannot control. so you need to learn the balance.
 
Americans have a history of mystifying what is straightforward. Use your table knowledge to pick out a precise tip position, and then deliver the tip there. You only need to practice one stroke motion to hit anywhere on the cue ball, you don’t need to accumulate a variety of different vehicles to get there. Just figure out how to stroke in a straight line like all of the other cue sports.

I think maybe you need a high school diploma or a GED to believe this, from my observations. No offense.
 
nataddrho said:
Americans have a history of mystifying what is straightforward. Use your table knowledge to pick out a precise tip position, and then deliver the tip there. You only need to practice one stroke motion to hit anywhere on the cue ball, you don’t need to accumulate a variety of different vehicles to get there. Just figure out how to stroke in a straight line like all of the other cue sports.

I think maybe you need a high school diploma or a GED to believe this, from my observations. No offense.
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If only it was that simple.😀
 
maha said:
the longer the length/distance of the period of no acceleration/constant speed of tip, the easier to have the proper speed when you hit your target/object ball.

so acceleration through the stroke is wrong. and taught by most of the non knowledgeable teachers that just regurgitate what they heard in the past.

it is uneven deceleration that is catastrophic near the cueball that you cannot control. so you need to learn the balance.
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Face to face I explain to people that you can't really accelerate through the cue ball, only try to. On the net rather than explain things for the umpteenth time I might simply say accelerate through the cue ball. Trying to coast or maintain a constant speed are both impractical. We have hundreds or in most of our cases thousands of hours practicing a smooth acceleration. Best to not tinker with that before striking the cue ball.

While accelerating we are getting support and guidance from our muscles and other soft tissue. The moment we back off of smooth acceleration it opens the door for bad things to happen. I know that we only need acceleration through the contact with the cue ball but if I tell people to quit accelerating at contact with the cue ball it would be like telling them to use a swipe stroke. Neither is impossible, but pretty damned close to!(grin) By telling people to accelerate through the cue ball we are telling people what we want them to try to do, not what is actually possible with typical cues. I wonder about with two to three pound cues. After enough weight is added to the cue stick there is zero feel of hitting the cue ball. Might be possible to maintain a very high percentage of the initial acceleration.

Coasting or even trying to maintain a constant speed still represents a transition from acceleration. I tried to master constant speed long ago. For all practical purposes it is impossible and speed of the cue ball will be more consistent trying to accelerate gently than trying to maintain a constant speed. A slowly accelerating speed was also more accurate in delivering tip to cue ball. I studied sports medicine for a few years long ago but as far as I know no real authority on sports medicine has ever focused on pool so we get theory and efforts to translate from other activities to pool.


nataddrho said:
Americans have a history of mystifying what is straightforward. Use your table knowledge to pick out a precise tip position, and then deliver the tip there. You only need to practice one stroke motion to hit anywhere on the cue ball, you don’t need to accumulate a variety of different vehicles to get there. Just figure out how to stroke in a straight line like all of the other cue sports.

I think maybe you need a high school diploma or a GED to believe this, from my observations. No offense.
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There are situations where a particular stroke works better than others. The old players had multiple strokes in their bag of tricks, roughly the equivalent of the golfer's bag of clubs. Mosconi used at least three strokes, more if you broke them down precisely. Did he need a pendulum, a slipstroke, and a full arm stroke to be effective? Probably not but he used what he felt was best for a particular shot. I haven't found any stroke that works better for taking a cue ball off of a rail than a slipstroke. A pendulum or a full arm stroke works well for most other shots. A well practiced slipstroke does too.

Whichever stroke we devote ourselves to is best for ourself. Strokes work best with constant tuning, any of them. All have some flaws. It is impossible to truly lock our shoulders so getting low to the table where soft tissue is near the limits of range of motion works best for a pendulum. Those not able to get low to the table have difficulty with a pendulum. There will usually be some motion in the shoulder. How much is too much? Any means you are no longer executing a "pure" pendulum.

I think a stroke from the shoulder with motion in the entire arm is best. The reason is simple. This most closely mimics the same motion the arm makes in walking, an activity we do very often. The pendulum is rarely used for anything but pool. Fixing the shoulder while moving the elbow, wrist and fingers is an unnaturally motion compared to combining action in our shoulder and elbow. Smaller motions in large joints are generally more consistent than large motions in small joints.

Get up and walk naturally to the other end of your home. Now, lock your shoulders and try to use just your elbows and wrists to balance walking back to your computer. I rest my case!

Hu
 
yes but in effect you want the speed you want to hit the ball with to be at the point of contact.

that is why having a longer period of no or little acceleration around the cue ball is best. not easy to do.
you can have a long follow through as long as your max acceleration is near the cue ball. other wise you will be striking it at different speeds for the same shot unbeknownst to you.
 
maha said:
yes but in effect you want the speed you want to hit the ball with to be at the point of contact.

that is why having a longer period of no or little acceleration around the cue ball is best. not easy to do.
you can have a long follow through as long as your max acceleration is near the cue ball. other wise you will be striking it at different speeds for the same shot unbeknownst to you.
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Sounds reasonable. The reason I tried to develop a constant speed stroke. Next to impossible, I never succeeded. Using gentle acceleration I developed cue ball control within an inch playing position.

I have to admit that I used precision position play to block myself more often than the other player. Had to let them think they were in the game. They could look at the last game, "If just that one shot had went different..."

A canny road player scouted me for three nights then decided to talk instead of playing. "The first night I thought you were lucky. The second night I still thought it might be luck. Nobody in the world gets as lucky as you three nights in a row." I was only busted a few times in years though.

Smooth acceleration got me pinpoint control to half a cue ball, sometimes a lot less when I deliberately shot into ridiculous gaps or hung myself by a quarter inch or less back before jump cues. I could have still jumped but the idea was to hook myself. Back in the eighties when the cloth was still thicker than today's and my eyes were better I used to be able to rock a ball and get in behind it.

I can't say it is true for everybody but for myself I was much more consistent with a gentle acceleration than trying to hold a constant speed. Constant speed seemed to be the holy grail and I tried very hard to make it work. Thing is that requires a transition between acceleration and a constant speed and was far more difficult than a gradual acceleration.

Hu
 
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