Calibrating Sidespin

iusedtoberich · Sep 25, 2012

Patrick, I'd like to try this on my table. Can you tell me the starting positions of the balls? I know it doesn't really matter, as you gave us the results in slope. However, I'd like to set up my test the same as yours.

Also, I have a set of Aramith Super Pros. From your earlier math, I take it the diameter of the circle on the centennials is 9/16*2 = 1 1/8?

The Aramith circle is 15/16".

Thanks.

LAMas · Sep 25, 2012

Patrick Johnson said:
How are shots made without correcting for squirt/swerve? Or is "parallel english" only used when squirt/swerve cancel each other out?

pj
chgo

Parallel inside english can be used to cut the shot a bit thinner using squirt to an advantage.

Line up for a CTE 30 degree shot but want to cut 35 degrees - parallel shift a tad to the inside of center on the CB.

I do this sometimes when I want to get shape when inside english off of the rail is desired.

AtLarge · Sep 25, 2012

iusedtoberich said:
... Also, I have a set of Aramith Super Pros. From your earlier math, I take it the diameter of the circle on the centennials is 9/16*2 = 1 1/8?

The Aramith circle is 15/16". ...

My measurements give the following as the approximate widths:

Brunswick Centennials: circle -- 31/32"; stripe -- 1 1/16"

Super Aramith Pros: circle -- 15/16"; stripe -- 1 5/16"

Aramith Tournaments (same widths as Super Aramith Pros): circle -- 15/16"; stripe -- 1 5/16"

Patrick Johnson · Sep 25, 2012

iusedtoberich said:
Patrick, I'd like to try this on my table. Can you tell me the starting positions of the balls? I know it doesn't really matter, as you gave us the results in slope. However, I'd like to set up my test the same as yours.

"Cue ball" (object ball with circle or stripe facing you) on the the foot spot or head spot; shoot straight across table (short way) at long rail, hit middle diamond between corner and side pockets.

Also, I have a set of Aramith Super Pros. From your earlier math, I take it the diameter of the circle on the centennials is 9/16*2 = 1 1/8?

The Aramith circle is 15/16".

Thanks.

Centennial circles are about 1" in diameter - I think AtLarge's measurements are correct.

pj
chgo

iusedtoberich · Sep 25, 2012

I'll post my results later. I want to make sure they are consistent. Here is a picture of my hits. I think chalk marks are actually the only objective way to discuss how much english is on the ball, that will work across any stick diameter. I believe that is one of the main points Patrick is trying to make.

You can see from the picture each chalk mark is about 4mm wide (5/32").

Patrick Johnson · Sep 25, 2012

iusedtoberich said:
I'll post my results later. I want to make sure they are consistent. Here is a picture of my hits. I think chalk marks are actually the only objective way to discuss how much english is on the ball, that will work across any stick diameter. I believe that is one of the main points Patrick is trying to make.

Roger that.

pj <- all about the objectivity
chgo

dr_dave · Sep 26, 2012

iusedtoberich said:
I'll post my results later. I want to make sure they are consistent. Here is a picture of my hits. I think chalk marks are actually the only objective way to discuss how much english is on the ball, that will work across any stick diameter. I believe that is one of the main points Patrick is trying to make.

You can see from the picture each chalk mark is about 4mm wide (5/32").
View attachment 242087

I think percentage English is even more objective, consistent, and easier to understand by most people (0% = no English, 100% = maximum English at the miscue limit, 50% = 1/2 maximum, etc.). Also, not everybody has a good feel for the size of a chalk mark, and the actual size can vary with tip hardness and shape, and with shot speed.

But I certainly prefer "chalk marks" to "tips."

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave · Sep 26, 2012

dr_dave said:
I think percentage English is even more objective, consistent, and easier to understand by most people (0% = no English, 100% = maximum English at the miscue limit, 50% = 1/2 maximum, etc.). Also, not everybody has a good feel for the size of a chalk mark, and the actual size can vary with tip hardness and shape, and with shot speed.

But I certainly prefer "chalk marks" to "tips."

FYI to PJ and iusedtoberich, I've added links to your posts and copies of your images to the tips of English resource page, which now includes descriptions and illustrations of all of the different ways people interpret "tips."

Good work,
Dave

iusedtoberich · Sep 26, 2012

Dr. Dave... cool. Your picture was what I was going to ask you, if someone had a comparison of tips of english as viewed from the cuestick, and the contact point it produces.

From the shooters persepctive if they are looking at the shaft, do you have a calculation to show the ratio of stick movement to contact point movement? I know its not a linear relationship due to the curvature of the balls.

Another way to think of it:
For a 1mm centerline of shaft cueing error,
a. What is the contact error at center ball
b. What is the contact error at 50% max english
c. What is the contact error at 100% max english?

I can get these numbers and pictures if you don't already have them...

iusedtoberich · Sep 26, 2012

For the record, until these discussions on AZ, I never actually thought about chalk marks, except as a very infrequent diagnostic tool for center ball accuracy. More food for thought on this great game...

dr_dave · Sep 26, 2012

iusedtoberich said:
Dr. Dave... cool. Your picture was what I was going to ask you, if someone had a comparison of tips of english as viewed from the cuestick, and the contact point it produces.

TP B.1 has an illustration (and an equation), assuming BHE is used to cancel squirt.

iusedtoberich said:
From the shooters persepctive if they are looking at the shaft, do you have a calculation to show the ratio of stick movement to contact point movement? I know its not a linear relationship due to the curvature of the balls.

At the table, I think this is best done through visualization and/or judgement. IMO, people can have a pretty good sense for where the tip (regardless of its curvature) is actually hitting the ball.

Regards,
Dave

ENGLISH! · Sep 26, 2012

Carification?

Patrick Johnson said:
I angled my cue/stroke by feel to compensate for squirt/swerve, moving both back hand and front hand to do it.

This isn't backhand english (which means to move your back hand but not your front hand - i.e., pivoting at the bridge).

It may be what you refer to as "parallel" english, which is not really parallel with anything.

pj
chgo

PJ, You may have noticed or perhaps not, but when I have listed the different 'types' of english that I employ, I have listed 'Parallel' & a combined BHE & FHE. They are different, to me. In 'my' 'parallel' both hands are put to one side of the 'center line'. For 'my' combination of Back & Front hand english the two(2) go in the opposite direction of the 'center line'. Butt to the right with a bridge hand slide or lean to the left for example.

Just a clarification of to which 'I' have been referring.

What do you think?

Rick

ENGLISH! · Sep 26, 2012

dr_dave said:
I think percentage English is even more objective, consistent, and easier to understand by most people (0% = no English, 100% = maximum English at the miscue limit, 50% = 1/2 maximum, etc.). Also, not everybody has a good feel for the size of a chalk mark, and the actual size can vary with tip hardness and shape, and with shot speed.

But I certainly prefer "chalk marks" to "tips."

Regards,
Dave

As I eluded to in an earlier post, I agree that the difference in the sizes of marks depending on tip size, hardnes, etc, would be an inconclusive measurement. I for one never think in those terms. I agree that fractional amounts from 0 to the maximum 100% just inside the miscue would be the most generally understood. To be honest I hardly ever know exactly what amount I am applying. Is it 57% or 63%? Or is it really 60%?

Rick

Patrick Johnson · Sep 26, 2012

ENGLISH! said:
PJ, You may have noticed or perhaps not, but when I have listed the different 'types' of english that I employ, I have listed 'Parallel' & a combined BHE & FHE. They are different, to me. In 'my' 'parallel' both hands are put to one side of the 'center line'. For 'my' combination of Back & Front hand english the two(2) go in the opposite direction of the 'center line'. Butt to the right with a bridge hand slide or lean to the left for example.

Just a clarification of to which 'I' have been referring.

What do you think?

Rick

If you're saying you can shoot the same shot with your hands on both sides or on the same side of the center line, I think you're mistaken. To make the same shot with the same spin you must place your hands in the same positions.

pj
chgo

ENGLISH! · Sep 27, 2012

Patrick Johnson said:
If you're saying you can shoot the same shot with your hands on both sides or on the same side of the center line, I think you're mistaken. To make the same shot with the same spin you must place your hands in the same positions.

pj
chgo

PJ,

That isn't what I was trying to say. For clarification & reference sake, I was merely pointing out that my combination BHE / FHE english & 'parallel' english are two(2) different animals.

But to your point, I believe the same shot can be made with either, but each one requires a slighty different 'alignment' as the cue ball squirt starts out on a different line relative to the 'center' line. I hope I said the correctly.

Best Regards,
Rick

Patrick Johnson · Sep 27, 2012

If you're saying you can shoot the same shot with your hands on both sides or on the same side of the center line, I think you're mistaken. To make the same shot with the same spin you must place your hands in the same positions.

pj
chgo

Click to expand...

ENGLISH!
I was merely pointing out that my combination BHE / FHE english & 'parallel' english are two(2) different animals.

They may be different approaches, but for the same shot they must reach the same tip/ball contact point and cue alignment or one of them will miss the shot.

I believe the same shot can be made with either, but each one requires a slighty different 'alignment' as the cue ball squirt starts out on a different line relative to the 'center' line.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, so I'll just restate my point: to make the cue ball go in the same direction with the same speed and spin (i.e., the same shot), you must hit it on the same tip/ball contact point, at the same speed and from the same angle. You can't do that with different cue alignments.

pj
chgo

ENGLISH! · Sep 27, 2012

Patrick Johnson said:
They may be different approaches, but for the same shot they must reach the same tip/ball contact point and cue alignment or one of them will miss the shot.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, so I'll just restate my point: to make the cue ball go in the same direction with the same speed and spin (i.e., the same shot), you must hit it on the same tip/ball contact point, at the same speed and from the same angle. You can't do that with different cue alignments.

pj
chgo

PJ

We seem at times to 'communicte' in different vernaculars. I have no argument with what you stated as you stated it.

To me 'the shot' simply refers to the ball positions. There are an 'infinite' number of ways to shoot 'the shot'. I can shoot 'the shot' with both set ups of outside english for instance.

Will a video recording of both be exactly 'the same'? I doubt it, but the OB will go into the pocket for both. Maybe a different part of the pocket, but the pocket non the less & the cue ball will travel differently.

Not trying to instigate a discussion. I was merely clarifying the difference in my reference to combo BHE/FHE vs 'parallel.

I hope we're all good. I've been called 'anal' a few times in my life. I don't particularly like the term but it's easier to say than 'detail oriented'.

Best Regards,
Rick

Patrick Johnson · Sep 27, 2012

ENGLISH! said:
PJ
I hope we're all good.

Of course, Rick - just talkin'...

pj
chgo

ENGLISH! · Sep 27, 2012

Patrick Johnson said:
Of course, Rick - just talkin'...

pj
chgo

Glad to hear it. I did not want to put my foot in my mouth before lunch. I don't care much for 'filet de sole'.

Normally I'd be heading out to play today, but I have multiple transportation issues.

Hope your day is better than mine.

Rick

3kushn · Sep 27, 2012

Agreed.

Why only 2 positions from center? Why not 3 or maybe even 4. And what's the drill to be sure you're in calibration with these tip placements? I mean we shoud calibrate to some Standard, correct?

Maybe I missed that here. Just skimmed through and just asking.

Calibrating Sidespin

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