Am I crazy or 314-3 has higher deflection than 314-2??

9Ballr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm using a kamui black super soft tip, the same as on my 314-2, so don't think the tip is the issue...


Super Soft on an LD shaft????
Get medium....at least.
Hard even better.
The Everest seriously matches the LD shafts perfectly, yes to all
the sensitive souls who frequent AZ, all that is for ME only!
Perfect for me.
At least medium for me.
Everest for me.....geeezz I wish some people weren't so sensitive.
LOL!!!!!!!
 

softshot

Simplify
Silver Member
SWN

I'm really curious why you feel that way.

As a guy who makes LD (low cue ball deflection) shafts, I'm absolutely certain that cue ball deflection is not only real, but it can be effected by the engineering of the cue shaft.

Do you not believe that cue ball deflection is real?

Do you not believe that our shafts reduce cue ball deflection?

I'm just trying to determine what the "marketing" is. You make it sound as though the marketing is making false claims. I can assure that we don't, and I can easily prove it as well.

I'm not trying to start a fight, or disrespect you in any way. Actually, I very much respect your opinion and thoughts and just really want to know more about how you came to feel the way you do.

I look forward to your response.

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

There is no such thing as cue ball deflection it doesn't exist

Cueballs squirt. shafts deflect. In point of fact low endmass shafts deflect MORE than traditional shafts

So they are in fact HIGH deflection shafts. Even the descriptor is a lie..

Now back to your regularly scheduled sales pitch...
 

RBC

Deceased
There is no such thing as cue ball deflection it doesn't exist

Cueballs squirt. shafts deflect. In point of fact low endmass shafts deflect MORE than traditional shafts

So they are in fact HIGH deflection shafts. Even the descriptor is a lie..

Now back to your regularly scheduled sales pitch...



While I do agree with what you say, it is symantics.

The industry had already created the definitions that we had to follow. I personally don't like the term "LD", so I always try to follow it up with Cue Ball Deflection. At least it's an attempt to bridge the 2 anyway. I think we were the first to really strive to use the term cue ball squirt.

As far as the sales pitch part, I really don't think I'm doing that. Believe me, I do know how to make a sales pitch, and this isn't it.

All I really try to do is provide an honest and truthful point of view. I hope that's ok.

Royce
 

SWN99

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
SWN

I'm really curious why you feel that way.

As a guy who makes LD (low cue ball deflection) shafts, I'm absolutely certain that cue ball deflection is not only real, but it can be effected by the engineering of the cue shaft.

Do you not believe that cue ball deflection is real?

Do you not believe that our shafts reduce cue ball deflection?

I'm just trying to determine what the "marketing" is. You make it sound as though the marketing is making false claims. I can assure that we don't, and I can easily prove it as well.

I'm not trying to start a fight, or disrespect you in any way. Actually, I very much respect your opinion and thoughts and just really want to know more about how you came to feel the way you do.

I look forward to your response.

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

I have hit with a OB+ and it felt totally hollow, hit some shot with a predator shaft it felt like a more traditional maple shaft.
Marketing would be the claims each manufacturer makes in a "sterile" environment.
Do you get more accuracy on a table with new cloth versus old cloth? Do you get more action on table in a area with higher humidity vs low humidity ? Does a player jabbing and poking at the cue ball have less accuracy than someone stroking it slower? I think LD and its marketing all comes down to theoretical numbers.
 
Last edited:
While I do agree with what you say, it is symantics.

The industry had already created the definitions that we had to follow. I personally don't like the term "LD", so I always try to follow it up with Cue Ball Deflection. At least it's an attempt to bridge the 2 anyway. I think we were the first to really strive to use the term cue ball squirt.

As far as the sales pitch part, I really don't think I'm doing that. Believe me, I do know how to make a sales pitch, and this isn't it.

All I really try to do is provide an honest and truthful point of view. I hope that's ok.

Royce

Don't worry about SS. He's had a grievance about a warranty issue on an LD shaft from years ago. He'll get over it. Eventually. Probably.
 

RBC

Deceased
I have hit with a OB+ and it felt totally hollow, hit some shot with a predator shaft it felt like a more traditional maple shaft.
Marketing would be the claims each manufacturer makes in a "sterile" environment.
Do you get more accuracy on a table with new cloth versus old cloth? Do you get more action on table in a area with higher humidity vs low humidity ? Does a player jabbing and poking at the cue ball have less accuracy than someone stroking it slower? I think LD and its marketing all comes down to theoretical numbers.

SWN99

Thanks for replying back, I appreciate it.

You're original statement was, "Crazy, there isn't much difference if any. LD Shafts are pure marketing". I'm curious about where that comes from. The implication is that there isn't much difference between LD shafts and non LD shafts, and that what we claim is all false. Meaning it's just "marketing". I just really want to know where that comes from. Obviously, your experiences have led you to that belief and I'm interested in what those experiences are. To be completely honest, I'm looking for how we have failed in our marketing so we can improve.

Your post quoted above seems very distracting. You mentioned hitting with an OB+. We make several different models, and they are built and designed to feel differently. The OB-1+ and the OB-2+ both are designed to provide a softer quieter softer hit than our other shafts. They are also slightly more flexible, so the do spin the ball a little easier. On the other hand, our Classic+ and Pro+ are designed to have a much more firm and stiff feel. They are designed to provide a feel much more similar to traditional shafts. I'm very confident that we've accomplished that. We get feedback just about every day supporting it as well as what we get at tournaments and shows where we display our products.

We don't make any claims in a "sterile" environment. I'm not sure what you mean by this.

We don't make any claims of accuracy. Accuracy is something that a player has and provides and is a result of aiming. No product can aim for the player. We do claim that the reduction is cue ball squirt can make aiming easier for many players. The feedback and testimonials from our customers dramatically supports that claim.

All the comments about playing conditions are really relevant to all shafts, so I'm not sure what claims you think we've made related to those conditions.


I completely understand that our products are not for everyone, and I'm completely OK with that. I'm very good friends with many traditional cue makers. Diversity in the market is great for players and the pool world.

What I don't understand is the many unfounded and unsupported claims about false marketing claims and lies about performance come from.


Again, all I'm really trying to do is to learn how these positions about false marketing claims come from.

Thanks for the conversation!

Royce
 

Colin Colenso

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
SWN99

Thanks for replying back, I appreciate it.

You're original statement was, "Crazy, there isn't much difference if any. LD Shafts are pure marketing". I'm curious about where that comes from. The implication is that there isn't much difference between LD shafts and non LD shafts, and that what we claim is all false. Meaning it's just "marketing". I just really want to know where that comes from. Obviously, your experiences have led you to that belief and I'm interested in what those experiences are. To be completely honest, I'm looking for how we have failed in our marketing so we can improve.

Your post quoted above seems very distracting. You mentioned hitting with an OB+. We make several different models, and they are built and designed to feel differently. The OB-1+ and the OB-2+ both are designed to provide a softer quieter softer hit than our other shafts. They are also slightly more flexible, so the do spin the ball a little easier. On the other hand, our Classic+ and Pro+ are designed to have a much more firm and stiff feel. They are designed to provide a feel much more similar to traditional shafts. I'm very confident that we've accomplished that. We get feedback just about every day supporting it as well as what we get at tournaments and shows where we display our products.

We don't make any claims in a "sterile" environment. I'm not sure what you mean by this.

We don't make any claims of accuracy. Accuracy is something that a player has and provides and is a result of aiming. No product can aim for the player. We do claim that the reduction is cue ball squirt can make aiming easier for many players. The feedback and testimonials from our customers dramatically supports that claim.

All the comments about playing conditions are really relevant to all shafts, so I'm not sure what claims you think we've made related to those conditions.


I completely understand that our products are not for everyone, and I'm completely OK with that. I'm very good friends with many traditional cue makers. Diversity in the market is great for players and the pool world.

What I don't understand is the many unfounded and unsupported claims about false marketing claims and lies about performance come from.


Again, all I'm really trying to do is to learn how these positions about false marketing claims come from.

Thanks for the conversation!

Royce

Have just been looking on the OB site Royce.

You don't need to convince me of squirt properties, I use BHE and test every cue I try to establish its squirt characteristics and have my cues altered in ferrule diameter and ferrule materials to get the squirt that suits my preferred bridge length.

Anyway, you, and your site mentioned creating different hits, hard, soft and in between I guess, and 2 years of testing done on this.

Can you expand on how you go about creating different hits and if this has any marked difference in performance, beyond psychological.

Cheers,
Colin
 

SamLambert

Daydreaming about pool
Silver Member
The things I just read in this thread....

Next thing someone is gonna say that the earth is flat.
 
Last edited:

RBC

Deceased
Have just been looking on the OB site Royce.

You don't need to convince me of squirt properties, I use BHE and test every cue I try to establish its squirt characteristics and have my cues altered in ferrule diameter and ferrule materials to get the squirt that suits my preferred bridge length.

Anyway, you, and your site mentioned creating different hits, hard, soft and in between I guess, and 2 years of testing done on this.

Can you expand on how you go about creating different hits and if this has any marked difference in performance, beyond psychological.

Cheers,
Colin


Colin

Absolutely!

A little background.

Our first shaft, the OB-1, was made with 6 pieces of flat laminated maple each turned round and then notched so that they would "nest" together kind of like a clover leaf. That made the blank from which we turned the shaft. One of the interesting things about the OB-1 is that we drill through the center of the shaft for the entire length from end to end. We then install a silicone foam rubber core that acts as a noise cancellation device. The core runs from just above the joint to about 6" from the tip end of the shaft. The goal was a shaft that was quiet, and it proved to be very successful.

Later, after adding the OB-2, which is just a smaller diameter version of the OB-1, we still had requests for shafts that made the "ping" kind of sound. So, I decided to bring 2 new shafts to market to accommodate those who wanted the sound, and that gave us the Classic and the Pro. These shafts don't have the hole or the core of the OB's, and as such are more stiff and make more sound when you hit the cue ball.

All of the shafts do have what we call the "tip end treatment". This is basically a hole as well as ferrule materials and engineering to keep the tip end mass as low as possible while still providing the feel and sound that the rest of the shaft was designed for.

In 2013 we made the change to the "+" model shafts, which is mostly a change in the construction of the blank itself. Instead of using 6 pieces of flat laminated maple, we use 6 pieces of solid maple to build the blank. At the same time, we improved our Tip End Treatment to further reduce the tip end mass by app. 13% across the board.

So, now to answer your question. These differences absolutely do change the characteristics of the different cue shafts. The wood ferruled shafts are much quieter, and feel softer. They are also a little more flexible so they spin the cue ball a little easier. The white ferruled shafts hit more firm with more sound, and they are a little more stiff. So it takes a little more work to spin the cue ball with those than with their wood ferrule counterparts.

The Classic+ and the Pro+ are the shafts we recommend when someone is looking for the more traditional type of feel and sound. The OB-1+ and the OB-2+ are recommended for those looking for the "soft but solid" type of feel.

When we launched the white ferruled shafts, I some what expected that they would take over and be more popular than the wood ferruled shafts. But the sales percentages run surprisingly close. The last time we checked, the 4 different models of shafts were all within a couple of percent of each other.

I think I covered it all.

Royce
 

cbi1000

It is what it is...
Silver Member
Predator knows the new shafts have more delfection then the last ones. No where on their site does it show deflection charts. They used to show how much % their shafts are lower in deflection then their 1st series and standard shafts. They do not do that anymore. I called and asked them and the sales guy gave me a song an dance and never answered the question.

I'm done with predator. I purchased a Peachaur P+ Pro, plays and feels better than the 3 series from predator.
 

shinobi

kanadajindayo
Silver Member
Predator knows the new shafts have more delfection then the last ones. No where on their site does it show deflection charts. They used to show how much % their shafts are lower in deflection then their 1st series and standard shafts. They do not do that anymore. I called and asked them and the sales guy gave me a song an dance and never answered the question.

I'm done with predator. I purchased a Peachaur P+ Pro, plays and feels better than the 3 series from predator.

This is very interesting.

The 314^2 was supposed to have less squirt than the original 314. If the 314^3 has more deflection than the 314^2, I wonder if it is similar to a 314 or possibly even squirts more. Who knows -- maybe it's good news for people with 314s who skipped the 314^2 generation. No adjustment needed? haha

I only had a chance to hit with that Pechauer shaft once (a friend bought one) and from my limited testing it was very good (in terms of LD properties/squirt).
 

ZeroSkylineX

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There's a handful of people that still prefer the original 314 over the 314-2, I'm guessing probably the same reason OP is experiencing.
 

GideonF

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Colin



Absolutely!



A little background.



Our first shaft, the OB-1, was made with 6 pieces of flat laminated maple each turned round and then notched so that they would "nest" together kind of like a clover leaf. That made the blank from which we turned the shaft. One of the interesting things about the OB-1 is that we drill through the center of the shaft for the entire length from end to end. We then install a silicone foam rubber core that acts as a noise cancellation device. The core runs from just above the joint to about 6" from the tip end of the shaft. The goal was a shaft that was quiet, and it proved to be very successful.



Later, after adding the OB-2, which is just a smaller diameter version of the OB-1, we still had requests for shafts that made the "ping" kind of sound. So, I decided to bring 2 new shafts to market to accommodate those who wanted the sound, and that gave us the Classic and the Pro. These shafts don't have the hole or the core of the OB's, and as such are more stiff and make more sound when you hit the cue ball.



All of the shafts do have what we call the "tip end treatment". This is basically a hole as well as ferrule materials and engineering to keep the tip end mass as low as possible while still providing the feel and sound that the rest of the shaft was designed for.



In 2013 we made the change to the "+" model shafts, which is mostly a change in the construction of the blank itself. Instead of using 6 pieces of flat laminated maple, we use 6 pieces of solid maple to build the blank. At the same time, we improved our Tip End Treatment to further reduce the tip end mass by app. 13% across the board.



So, now to answer your question. These differences absolutely do change the characteristics of the different cue shafts. The wood ferruled shafts are much quieter, and feel softer. They are also a little more flexible so they spin the cue ball a little easier. The white ferruled shafts hit more firm with more sound, and they are a little more stiff. So it takes a little more work to spin the cue ball with those than with their wood ferrule counterparts.



The Classic+ and the Pro+ are the shafts we recommend when someone is looking for the more traditional type of feel and sound. The OB-1+ and the OB-2+ are recommended for those looking for the "soft but solid" type of feel.



When we launched the white ferruled shafts, I some what expected that they would take over and be more popular than the wood ferruled shafts. But the sales percentages run surprisingly close. The last time we checked, the 4 different models of shafts were all within a couple of percent of each other.



I think I covered it all.



Royce


Royce,

Any thoughts on the earlier discussions about whether the leather in the tip is denser than the tip (see my discussion above about more or less squirt with a brand new tip versus an old thin tip)?
 

Matt IBO

Registered
I currently shoot with a lucasi with a predator 314. I might soon have(as long as my friend doesn't back on his deal where he has a deposit and hand shake) a predator sport cue with a 314-2. He bought the new sport cue ice with a 314-3 but isn't sure if he likes it yet. I guess this is probably why....seems like maybe they didn't do their customers right this time.
 

mristea

Pool maniac
Silver Member
I currently shoot with a lucasi with a predator 314. I might soon have(as long as my friend doesn't back on his deal where he has a deposit and hand shake) a predator sport cue with a 314-2. He bought the new sport cue ice with a 314-3 but isn't sure if he likes it yet. I guess this is probably why....seems like maybe they didn't do their customers right this time.
LoL I did the same thing, purchased the Predator Sport 2 with 314-3...and didn't like it at all...so I'm back at my Ikon 2 with 314-2.
Don't hope too much, there is a big chance your friend will do the same as I did...for me the new 314-3 SUCKS...and this is coming from a Predator fan...
 

Drop The Rock

1652nd on AZ Money List
Silver Member
hmmm

For a little change of pace, I have never owned a 314^2. I have hit with them a fair amount but never owned one. I have owned an OB 2, Mezz Wx900, HPII, and now a 314^3. IMO the 314^3 hits more solid than the 314^2. I can actually feel the shaft and not just the tip and joint. If it has higher deflection its really not that much. Also if your 314^2 is 12.50 from a long time period of play, it will have less cue ball squirt than than the 314^3.

I'm not looking for differences of 5% in deflection because I can adjust to that. However an LD shaft vs traditional maple is much easier to shoot shots with extreme english and especially inside FOR ME. There are a lot of pros who use LD shafts for more than just the sales pitch. Guys who can still give most of the clowns on here, including me, the 7. Most of them play with LD shafts around 12.75, however a few use 12-11.75mm shafts as well. Most of them say the same thing, which is that LD shafts make certain shots easier for them and the hit more consistent.
 
Top