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Straightpool_99
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07-13-2019, 03:55 PM

My opinion is that most players do not know how or when to take fouls. There is a lot of knowledge and tactical thinking required to actually use fouls intelligently. Some people just don't want to take 3 fouls, for what I think may be ideological reasons, when they absolutely should. Instead they shoot some hail Mary shot and frequently sell out the game. When the table is open and you're locked completely up, take the 3 fouls, unless you're playing a very weak player, or it's just practise (you absolutely should use fouls in pracitse as well IMO).

In many cases, taking fouls only prolongs the inevitable, especially when it's clear that the person absolutely won't take 3 fouls. The knowledge or suspicion that the person won't take 3 fouls changes the tactics a lot. People will use that against you, if they suspect. Don't be that guy.
  
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07-14-2019, 12:51 AM

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Originally Posted by Straightpool_99 View Post
Snooker players seem to deal with it just fine, and it's used in Europe for every tournament of note. The occational mishap does occur, but it's fairly uncommon. You just get used to double checking stuff before you carelessly dive in.
agree..
to me, promoting care/discouraging sloppiness in pool is a good idea..but funny things do happen.
where do you draw the line tho?
all ball fouls can seem extreme, but also seems fair rule.

ps thank all for the discourse..love to discuss, and learn


peace & love
  
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Dan White
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07-14-2019, 11:30 AM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
See the July 2000 column in http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2000.pdf .
Nice article! Good to review stuff like this from time to time. IIRC, the reason you want to leave the cue ball at H (center of the head rail) is because it is harder to take a two rail back scratch to L from there, correct?

Gotta go practice the Crane safety.
  
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07-14-2019, 12:32 PM

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Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
Nice article! Good to review stuff like this from time to time. IIRC, the reason you want to leave the cue ball at H (center of the head rail) is because it is harder to take a two rail back scratch to L from there, correct?

Gotta go practice the Crane safety.
Hey Dan. I knew Irving pretty well, saw him play numerous times, and we discussed the two rail kick safety in 14.1 on a few occasions.

The extent to which Crane used the 2-rail safety has been overstated by the pool historians. Though he used it in numerous situations, the position from which he typically liked to play it was when he and opponent were both on two fouls and the pack remained undisturbed. His reasoning, as he explained it to me, was that it wasn't such a terrible result if he missed the pack completely and that if he got the safety, his opponent, already on two, would be under great pressure.

If you want to work on something, Dan, work on your opening break safety, which you will be required to play after a third foul. Unless you're very good at it, the percentages for taking a third foul intentionally drop quite a bit.

In all positions in which an intentional third foul is being considered, among the most overlooked points in the game's tactical theory is that when you take a third foul when you and opponent are both on two, if you execute the opening break successfully, opponent is in hot water.

It's way more important to practice your opening break than to learn the Crane safety.
  
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07-14-2019, 02:05 PM

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Originally Posted by sjm View Post
Hey Dan. I knew Irving pretty well, saw him play numerous times, and we discussed the two rail kick safety in 14.1 on a few occasions.

The extent to which Crane used the 2-rail safety has been overstated by the pool historians. Though he used it in numerous situations, the position from which he typically liked to play it was when he and opponent were both on two fouls and the pack remained undisturbed. His reasoning, as he explained it to me, was that it wasn't such a terrible result if he missed the pack completely and that if he got the safety, his opponent, already on two, would be under great pressure.

If you want to work on something, Dan, work on your opening break safety, which you will be required to play after a third foul. Unless you're very good at it, the percentages for taking a third foul intentionally drop quite a bit.

In all positions in which an intentional third foul is being considered, among the most overlooked points in the game's tactical theory is that when you take a third foul when you and opponent are both on two, if you execute the opening break successfully, opponent is in hot water.

It's way more important to practice your opening break than to learn the Crane safety.
Quite illuminating. Great info!
  
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07-14-2019, 05:28 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
If the cue ball is frozen to an object ball, you are permitted to shoot at that ball. If the cue ball is not quite frozen, you may not hit the cue ball twice and you may not have the tip of the cue stick on the cue ball when it hits the object ball. This is a very, very common problem and I'm surprised you have not encountered it yet.

As snooker and carom, you are never allowed to shoot towards (or even partly into) a ball that the cue ball is frozen to.

In order for the balls to be considered frozen they must be declared as such. In Stu's situation, the balls were evidently not declared frozen (and agreed to) so the call should have gone in his favor.

There is a video of a match of two world champions playing 14.1. Just after a break shot the cue ball and an object ball are lined up to the side pocket but they are separated by maybe a quarter-inch. The player fumes and whines because he knows that he can't play the only shot available without fouling. His seated opponent is probably looking to see what sort of safe will be played.

Suddenly the player calls the ball in the side and strokes through hitting the cue ball twice. The move does not give the seated opponent time to call over a ref. After the expected complaint by his opponent, the fouler said, "No one was watching -- my word against yours." That was one of the nastiest, cheating, thug moves I've seen a so-called "professional" pull.

The good news is that they met again later and the victim ran out on the cheating thug and eliminated him from the tournament.

I remember that match. Wonderful ending.
  
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07-14-2019, 06:47 PM

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Originally Posted by sjm View Post
It's way more important to practice your opening break than to learn the Crane safety.
I know, but it's still fun to try the Crane safety. The opening safety is a breeze by comparison.

Must've been nice for you to know Irving Crane. Have you ever made a mental list of the kinds of things you learned from him?
  
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07-14-2019, 07:42 PM

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Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
Must've been nice for you to know Irving Crane. Have you ever made a mental list of the kinds of things you learned from him?
Yes, I've made a mental list, and I've taught many of the tactical shots and concepts I learned from Irving to many, yourself included.

Another thing Crane professed to me was that if you are underneath a frozen pack and against the bottom rail, unless on two fouls, take a very soft foul into the back of the pack, because your next chance will nearly always be easier. He hated to play safe when the cue ball was frozen to a rail.

By the way, one need not be that old to have seen the most leading edge tactical play. Allen Hopkins did about 95% of the things Irving did when it came to tactical play.

Last edited by sjm; 07-14-2019 at 07:45 PM.
  
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07-14-2019, 07:50 PM

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Originally Posted by sjm View Post
Yes, I've made a mental list, and I've taught many of the tactical shots and concepts I learned from Irving to many, yourself included.

Another thing Crane professed to me was that if you are underneath a frozen pack and against the bottom rail, unless on two fouls, take a very soft foul into the back of the pack, because your next chance will nearly always be easier. He hated to play safe when the cue ball was frozen to a rail.

By the way, one need not be that old to have seen the most leading edge tactical play. Allen Hopkins did about 95% of the things Irving did when it came to tactical play.
Thanks again! I'll have to play around with that one and see what happens.
  
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08-14-2019, 01:02 PM

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Originally Posted by sjm View Post
Yes, I've made a mental list, and I've taught many of the tactical shots and concepts I learned from Irving to many, yourself included.

Another thing Crane professed to me was that if you are underneath a frozen pack and against the bottom rail, unless on two fouls, take a very soft foul into the back of the pack, because your next chance will nearly always be easier. He hated to play safe when the cue ball was frozen to a rail.

By the way, one need not be that old to have seen the most leading edge tactical play. Allen Hopkins did about 95% of the things Irving did when it came to tactical play.
I think that Crane's strategy on taking a foul and leaving the cue against the bottom of a full pack would only makes sense if the opponent was already on one foul. Otherwise, the opponent can simply keep sending you back to that bottom rail - once Crane was on two fouls, still on the bottom rail, and now the opponent is on two fouls- it would be Crane's move to shoot for a THIRD time off that bottom rail- and he would be at a disadvantage as he would have to make a legal safety from where he hated to shoot or be on 3 fouls first!
  
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08-14-2019, 02:52 PM

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Originally Posted by mikemosconi View Post
I think that Crane's strategy on taking a foul and leaving the cue against the bottom of a full pack would only makes sense if the opponent was already on one foul. Otherwise, the opponent can simply keep sending you back to that bottom rail - once Crane was on two fouls, still on the bottom rail, and now the opponent is on two fouls- it would be Crane's move to shoot for a THIRD time off that bottom rail- and he would be at a disadvantage as he would have to make a legal safety from where he hated to shoot or be on 3 fouls first!
If you MUST accomplish a legal safety from an uncomfortable position, would not the reward of leaving your opponent down table on 2 fouls constitute a helpful incentive to overcome your discomfort, and thus perform to the best of your ability? (I would consider staring at a full pack from the head rail, and being already on two fouls to be an ESPECIALLY uncomfortable position). Am I wrong, or isn’t a major part of overall ‘intention foul’ strategy to be aware of opportunities to maneuver your opponent into a higher pressure situation than what he inflicts?
  
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08-14-2019, 03:29 PM

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Originally Posted by DynoDan View Post
If you MUST accomplish a legal safety from an uncomfortable position, would not the reward of leaving your opponent down table on 2 fouls constitute a helpful incentive to overcome your discomfort, and thus perform to the best of your ability? (I would consider staring at a full pack from the head rail, and being already on two fouls to be an ESPECIALLY uncomfortable position). Am I wrong, or isn’t a major part of overall ‘intention foul’ strategy to be aware of opportunities to maneuver your opponent into a higher pressure situation than what he inflicts?
Yes , correct- whenever you are the first person to initiate the intentional foul in 14.1- you NEED to know up front what your OUT safe will be when both of you are on two fouls- as that is always a high probability with very good and knowledgeable 14.1 players- and you may very well end up right where you started from when initiating your first intentional foul- THAT was my point here! if Crane HATED to play safe off the rails- then he had to know that initiating a foul off the bottom rail would most likely lead him to still be sitting back there with two fouls on him FIRST! and yes, if he then sent the cue ball VERY THIN off one of the two corner balls in the full stack UP to the other end of the table- he could put the opponent in the position to have to fire at the full stack from up table AND also being on two fouls- so Crane would then have an advantage. BUT, Crane would have to attempt that safe from a place he hated to BE! Additionally- try getting up table and thinning one of the end balls in a full pack WHEN you are frozen behind the pack on the middle diamond of the bottom rail- you cannot use full left or right english just top right or left - TOUGH to execute and very possible miscue- THAT is way Crane hated to be in that position to begin with- and THAT is why great 14.1 safety play tells you to try and keep putting him RIGHT BACK there until he has two fouls and he HAS to move up table from there or go 3 and out!

Last edited by mikemosconi; 08-15-2019 at 04:42 AM.
  
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08-15-2019, 07:04 AM

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Originally Posted by mikemosconi View Post
I think that Crane's strategy on taking a foul and leaving the cue against the bottom of a full pack would only makes sense if the opponent was already on one foul. Otherwise, the opponent can simply keep sending you back to that bottom rail - once Crane was on two fouls, still on the bottom rail, and now the opponent is on two fouls- it would be Crane's move to shoot for a THIRD time off that bottom rail- and he would be at a disadvantage as he would have to make a legal safety from where he hated to shoot or be on 3 fouls first!
A logical argument, but here practice trumps theory because I said he was frozen to the rail and in practice, opponent will be hard pressed to put him frozen to the rail again, let alone twice. If they left him off the rail, he had gained something at the expense of one point. If they somehow managed to freeze him twice (probably less than a 10% chance), he'd have to play the safety from underneath.

The strategy usually applies when neither player is on a foul and the shooter is frozen to the bottom rail under a tight pack, but is reasonable even on a foul.

Finally, if opponent were on a foul and you are not, the correct shot is to send the cue ball to the top of the table in the middle of the table without disturbing the pack at all.
  
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Bob Jewett
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08-15-2019, 08:59 AM

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Originally Posted by sjm View Post
... Another thing Crane professed to me was that if you are underneath a frozen pack and against the bottom rail, unless on two fouls, take a very soft foul into the back of the pack, because your next chance will nearly always be easier....
I think it's good to define "very soft" here. Some might think that you want to roll the cue ball only barely hard enough to just touch the bottom of the rack. I think it should be at least hard enough to move a ball or two a couple of balls out of the rack.

And there are some places that you might be frozen on the foot rail that allow you to play into a frozen rack and consistently both get a ball to a cushion and leave the cue ball frozen to the bottom of the rack, as Stu has mentioned before. It is important to know when that is possible and use it when available.


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08-15-2019, 10:32 AM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I think it's good to define "very soft" here. Some might think that you want to roll the cue ball only barely hard enough to just touch the bottom of the rack. I think it should be at least hard enough to move a ball or two a couple of balls out of the rack.
That's correct, Bob. The same principle is in play as when one takes a back scratch by kicking off the bottom rail into the back of the pack. You must loosen something to deny opponent the chance to answer with a scratch that sends you to the back rail, where you'll have a problem.

My bad, I should have made that clear.
  
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