BCA 8ball rules question

jojopiff said:

Player A breaks and doesn't make anything but thinks he does. Proceeds to shoot in 2 balls at which point the opponent tells him he didn't make anything on the break. What is the call?

Fortunately our league is filled with most chill people and both agreed to simply restart the game but I'm curious what the correct answer is if I found myself in a serious game.

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Once the second ball is down, continue. No different than if you have solids and your opponent starts shooting solids, it's a foul till he makes the second one, then you automatically have stripes.

Too late to call a foul after the 2nd ball is shot.. But I would tell player B he might want to start paying attention to the game if he is playing in it

JohnnyOzone said:

Too late to call a foul after the 2nd ball is shot.. But I would tell player B he might want to start paying attention to the game if he is playing in it

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Yep...

That's a pretty relaxed league.

Island Drive said:

Once the second ball is down, continue. No different than if you have solids and your opponent starts shooting solids, it's a foul till he makes the second one, then you automatically have stripes.

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This is not true in the BCAPL rules. You may never switch groups DURING a game.

BCAPL Rule 2-6.3 (Establishing Groups)
Once they are established, groups can never change for the remainder of that game. If a player shoots the wrong group and no foul is called before the next shot and the player continues to shoot at that group, or if at any time during the game it is discovered by either player or a referee that the players are shooting the wrong groups, the game will be replayed with the player who broke the game breaking again. If a game has ended and then the players realize they shot the wrong groups, the game is not replayed and the result stands.

jojopiff said:

Player A breaks and doesn't make anything but thinks he does. Proceeds to shoot in 2 balls at which point the opponent tells him he didn't make anything on the break. What is the call?

Fortunately our league is filled with most chill people and both agreed to simply restart the game but I'm curious what the correct answer is if I found myself in a serious game.

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The two applicable rules in the BCAPL rule book are...

Rule 1-42.2 (Non-Shooting Player Requirement)
The non-shooting player has an obligation to pay attention to the game on the table.

Rule 1-23.2 (Calling Fouls / Fouls Not Called)
Any foul not called before the next stroke is taken is considered to have not occurred.
General Discussion for rule 1-23: There is no requirement for a player that fouls to make their opponent aware of the foul.

sbpoolleague said:

This is not true in the BCAPL rules. You may never switch groups DURING a game.

BCAPL Rule 2-6.3 (Establishing Groups)
Once they are established, groups can never change for the remainder of that game. If a player shoots the wrong group and no foul is called before the next shot and the player continues to shoot at that group, or if at any time during the game it is discovered by either player or a referee that the players are shooting the wrong groups, the game will be replayed with the player who broke the game breaking again. If a game has ended and then the players realize they shot the wrong groups, the game is not replayed and the result stands.

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Thx.......

Here is the whole section of the BCAPL rule on groups of balls...

2-6 Establishing Groups
1. Groups are established when the first object ball is legally pocketed on a shot after the break. The player legally pocketing the first ball is assigned that group, and the opponent is assigned the other group. You cannot establish a group on a safety. (AR p. 102)
2. If all balls of either group are pocketed on the break or illegally pocketed before groups are established, either player may legally shoot the 8-ball during their inning. You win the game if you legally pocket the 8-ball on such a shot.
3. Once they are established, groups can never change for the remainder of that game. If a player shoots the wrong group and no foul is called before the next shot and the player continues to shoot at that group, or if at any time during the game it is discovered by either player or a referee that the players are shooting the wrong groups, the game will be replayed with the player who broke the game breaking again. If a game has ended and then the players realize they shot the wrong groups, the game is not replayed and the result stands.

So, basically...
If you catch the shooter before the 8 is shot...you replay the game.
Once the 8 is legally pocketed, game is over, no replay.

tucson9ball said:

So, basically...
If you catch the shooter before the 8 is shot...you replay the game.
Once the 8 is legally pocketed, game is over, no replay.

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That's kinda cheesy, because you could wait till you know he was gonna win and bring it up, whereas you could also go the other way if ya know he can't run out, don't say anything. No good, not fair, not what the BCAPL rule book is all about. But hey, it's league play.

Yeah I agree Bill,
I've never had this happen but it's in the rules.....who knows.
Guess it pays to watch your match and pay attention to what's going on.
I can't imagine waiting till the guys made like 5 balls and then say "oh wait, I had stripes". LOL

A couple of observations here...

tucson9ball said:

So, basically...
If you catch the shooter before the 8 is shot...you replay the game.
Once the 8 is legally pocketed, game is over, no replay.

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Yes that situation is technically possible under the CSI rules as written, but that is not the situation that was contemplated when the rule was written. The rule was specifically written to prevent manipulation, not allow it.

As also noted,

Island Drive said:

That's kinda cheesy, because you could wait till you know he was gonna win and bring it up, whereas you could also go the other way if ya know he can't run out, don't say anything. No good, not fair, not what the BCAPL rule book is all about...

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Definitely not. Which is why there is a catch-all in the CSI rules, specifically CSI Aplied Ruling 1-45, General Discussion, first paragaph:

Unless specifically stated otherwise, no act, failure to act, statement, or omission of information that would normally be legal under the rules is exempt from being penalized under Rule 1-45 if it is the judgment of a referee or other event official that it was committed in an unsportsmanlike manner.

Therefore, a properly trained referee, IF they can positively determine that a player nursed a game to a cerain conclusion while having full knowledge that the groups were confused, would apply a UC penalty to that player. If intent was suspected but not provable in the referee's opinion, a properly trained referee would still politely indicate to that player that they were on the radar for UC and that severe penalties would be in the offing.

Buddy

Now to the OP situation in CSI play...

jojopiff said:

Player A breaks and doesn't make anything but thinks he does. Proceeds to shoot in 2 balls at which point the opponent tells him he didn't make anything on the break. What is the call?

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In CSI play, this specific situation is not addressed. For better or worse, the act of shooting out of turn is not specifically defined or addressed in CSI rules.

The closest common sense fall back would be CSI Rule 2-3, 8-Ball Break Requirement, last sentence:

If you do not legally pocket a ball or you commit a foul, your inning ends.

combined with and CSI Rule 1-23-2:

Any foul not called before the next stroke is taken is considered to have not occurred.

If I were a TD, or a head ref adivsing a TD asking for an opinion, I would combine those two principles but would lend the most weight to 1-23-2. I would advise that the game continue with the player who broke continuing to shoot. Even if you consider the initial shot out of turn to be a foul, once it was not called after the first shot it was not enforceable after that point. The net effect, and a defensible position under CSI Rule 1-42-2 first sentence first clause, is that the non-breaking player gave up his turn by not approaching the table or making any effort to stop the breaker.

If a TD simply decided to re-rack, I would have absolutely no problem with that either. I think it would be a defensible position in the spirit of CSI Rule 2-6-1 and 2-6-3.

Of course, none of this is official. Been awhile since I've been writing the book. Just .02 from an experienced rule writer.

Buddy